The Game Box

Gaming Stuff => Abstract Games => Topic started by: usrlocal on July 20, 2014, 09:55:48 am



Title: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 20, 2014, 09:55:48 am
A 25-50 page rulebook. Hundreds of game pieces. A set of inter-related charts and tables. A game board that takes up your entire dining room table. And absolutely no theme/topic related to the real world.

Would you play it?


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: rstites25 on July 20, 2014, 10:22:55 am
Case Blue?


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 20, 2014, 10:27:56 am
Case Blue?

(http://api.ning.com/files/ugK2q4WSACYxpyjUBv0ApTF4UBYN6A93scWcCbveQu6H1g9f*czQnvrLj-*sWpKkAhgm3EcBvkY-B322girVVAJ-HTGnlGfA/sutherlandbodysnatcher.jpg)

Not an abstract!


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 20, 2014, 10:54:24 am
No. I'd be very interested in deep economic, political, evolutionary, or other sims though.

But abstracts should be simple. Like Go.
Euros too - if they aren't representing reality with complexity,
it is more a burden than a pleasure. The problem is that eurogamers
are reaching a point where they crave more game there, but they
are just layering on more complexity to what are essentially abstracts.
I guess it works for some of them though.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: kira1y on July 20, 2014, 11:18:08 am
Would you play it?
If I thought the system was cool I would. Although I'd be at a loss of what kind of game could contains that kind of rules mass while not having some sort of theme locked in to it.

I agree with Calandale, abstracts should be simple and deep.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 20, 2014, 11:25:47 am
I think the hardest part about trying to learn such a complex abstract would be that you couldn't tie it to real-world concepts. One of the things that makes learning the rules for something like ASL relatively easy is that they're logical in terms of mapping real-life situations (e.g. "Yeah, it makes sense that I should take a -DRM if my guy is moving in the open"). At least you can visualize it. With an abstract, it would be damned hard to lay on rules and exceptions to rules when they're not grounded in anything resembling reality.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 20, 2014, 11:27:12 am
I don't know about depth being a requirement. There are other things
which can add entertainment value in an abstract - especially multi-player.

One of my favorites (no 'thinking' abstract really) is Avalanche:

(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic860210_md.jpg)

Which is a game about dropping marbles through somewhat unpredictable levers
to fill out a bingo card.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 20, 2014, 11:29:35 am
I think the hardest part about trying to learn such a complex abstract would be that you couldn't tie it to real-world concepts. One of the things that makes learning the rules for something like ASL relatively easy is that they're logical in terms of mapping real-life situations (e.g. "Yeah, it makes sense that I should take a -DRM if my guy is moving in the open"). At least you can visualize it. With an abstract, it would be damned hard to lay on rules and exceptions to rules when they're not grounded in anything resembling reality.

Yep. But more than that, what's the POINT?

Why bother making a game difficult to play and learn? There are great abstracts
which are simple and deep, to provide as much challenge to supply a lifetime.

I think the modern heavy euro is as far as we're going to see in this direction.
And the heaviest games there (stuff like Splotter Spiel) don't appear to be
particularly abstract.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 20, 2014, 11:34:41 am

Yep. But more than that, what's the POINT?

Why bother making a game difficult to play and learn? There are great abstracts
which are simple and deep, to provide as much challenge to supply a lifetime.

I think the modern heavy euro is as far as we're going to see in this direction.
And the heaviest games there (stuff like Splotter Spiel) don't appear to be
particularly abstract.

Oh, I think such a beast could be super-cool. Highly detailed, rich interactions between game systems, emergent phenomena. Something you could really immerse yourself in. It would be like another world.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 20, 2014, 11:37:54 am
Besides. It's not so far-fetched. Look at something like Bridge.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: anarchy on July 20, 2014, 11:38:48 am
I don't know about depth being a requirement. There are other things
which can add entertainment value in an abstract - especially multi-player.

One of my favorites (no 'thinking' abstract really) is Avalanche:

(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic860210_md.jpg)

Which is a game about dropping marbles through somewhat unpredictable levers
to fill out a bingo card.

So, Pachinko then?

I don't play a lot of abstracts, mostly just Go and Chess. Theme is too important to me. I've tried some of the more popular abstracts before, like the Project GIPF ones. Meh.

Maybe a beefed up Star Trek Chess would be cool.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 20, 2014, 11:54:17 am


So, Pachinko then?


Never heard about it. It's kind of a party dexterity game (like Jenga), but with a bit of strategy.

Chinese Checkers would be another example - though I don't remember that being fun.


Games like Hexagony are probably about as far as I could see going with abstract
with complexity.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 20, 2014, 07:00:43 pm
So what it is it about wargames that makes you guys tolerate the complexity? Why wouldn't an equivalently well designed abstract with equivalent complexity grab you in the same way?


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 20, 2014, 07:28:03 pm
It's the relationship of the story to the actions. Complexity actually gets in the way
of visualizing for me but it can fill in details that make it worth learning well enough
to get a deeper story.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: rstites25 on July 20, 2014, 08:05:28 pm
As others may have said, I don't think it would be possible--or at least practical--to play a game that complex without something to tie it to real life to make the game somewhat intuitive. Most euros do this to some extent with the themes that they use. After playing several times, many people could play without the theme. But for learning purposes, the theme helps to learn the game.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: The Grinch on July 20, 2014, 08:57:48 pm
No.  Details and chrome are easier to assimilate when they represent something real.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Rockhopper on July 21, 2014, 06:39:11 am
No, I can't do that. No matter what game I am playing, I assume a very strong role-player mentality. Presumably, I have this approach because most of my gaming during my formative teen / early adult years was with role playing games. Even though I've moved on to other gaming, I've never turned it off.

So, I have a hard time conceptualizing games that do not have some amount of chrome, topic, or theme. At some level, I really need to feel like I am in someone's shoes.

Incidentally, I think this RPG approach to gaming keeps me from being "gamey" with systems, and helps me solo stuff. I am always thinking about what makes sense, and I typically shy away from actions that are purely for "getting ahead" in a game, even if well within the rules. People who wonder about solo gaming can't seem to understand that "winning" is often a relative term... Even though I am playing to win, I am not "playing to win," but for the story.

-------------------------------------

Something else, I once claimed on BGG (I think in General) that every game could be boiled down to a spreadsheet. This is certainly true of wargames, where units, mechanics, hex locations, everything could be reduced to cells, numbers, and equations. Now I don't have the technical expertise, but I've pondered the possibility of taking a relatively simple but unquestioned wargame, such as Afrika II, and converting it into some sort of pure spreadsheet. Could you then convert it into some kind of abstract game, with brightly colored wooden pieces, marbles, and a board that has no semblance whatsoever to a traditional wargame mapsheet?  I mean completely different, where what used to be hexes is now a deck of cards, the dice are now some kind of clever party game voting mechanism, and the units themselves are now stationary as the board, or something like that.  In the end, the victory conditions would be some sort of mathematical equivalent to the original game, and the new abstract monstrosity reasonably matches the same results, although perhaps in a more abstract language.

I don't know, and to be honest, I'm really just rambling during my first coffee Monday morning at work.



Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 21, 2014, 11:17:42 am
Translating between different representations is a fairly easy process. Whether or not those representations
can be grasped by human players is another matter.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 22, 2014, 07:50:51 am
So basically it boils down to mnemonics. Complex non-abstracts are easier to learn because our brains map game systems to real-world objects to grok relationships between them. Interesting.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2014, 11:37:40 am
I disagree that's ALL it is. There are people who will only play games on one
subject matter (say WWII). The subject actually matters. For me, the very
fact that a game represents a real process allows me to compare it to that
process and then simulate other choices with the system. I tend to drop
games which don't adequately represent their subject matter - things like
Dominant Species, BECAUSE they are too complex to just be games.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 22, 2014, 05:13:55 pm
You ever tried Elemental Rift?


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2014, 05:35:25 pm
Not I


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: usrlocal on July 22, 2014, 05:41:54 pm
Never mind. It's a bad example in the end. Game elements do (vaguely) map to real-world stuff.

Hmmm....


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: Calandale on July 22, 2014, 05:44:31 pm
You have to remember, I have trouble with things mapping a little off.

I just don't see much point to complexity burden that's not meant to simulate
something. I can understand (I guess) the desire to play something as chaotic
as reality as a pure challenge - but I'd guess it's a pretty small niche which
would go after pure abstracts with that quality.


Title: Re: Would you play an abstract with the complexity of a wargame?
Post by: dragonblaster on July 22, 2014, 07:33:51 pm
The problem is that eurogamers
are reaching a point where they crave more game there, but they
are just layering on more complexity to what are essentially abstracts.
I guess it works for some of them though.

Very true!  Makes investing your time in them seem wasted.  Why learn a hodge podge of **** only to stroke a mechanic?  You guys play Amerigo yet?  THat one absolutely killed the euro for me.  Exactly what Calandale is talking about.  It is supposed to be about The New World but it's really just 5 Abstract games interacting.