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Gaming Stuff => Military Games => Topic started by: usrlocal on July 09, 2014, 03:24:51 pm



Title: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: usrlocal on July 09, 2014, 03:24:51 pm
I've been mulling over this after reading numerous posts on various forums about MMP's Napoleonic Brigade Series. At some point, almost inevitably, someone says something like 'yeah, but it's dead now' as if it's not worth playing anymore because no new games in the series are being designed. I don't get that attitude.

Does it come from the computer gaming universe, where software has to be actively developed or will become 'abandonware'?

Does it come from an acceptance of designers getting away with 'living rules', where they can patch up design flaws well after a game is released? I mean, the NBS rules are pretty polished now, being on version 3.0, which to me is pretty stable.

So, do you care if a board wargame system is or isn't currently active? If MMP was to suddenly go under, would you think twice about playing more OCS or ASL, for example?


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: sparty on July 09, 2014, 03:37:25 pm
I'd hate to see a world in which actively supported systems stop getting supported and people just fade away from them!

I still hold out hope that Berg will do the 2nd Carthaginian War..but for now that series is "dead" har har

I think about the "death" of GCACW between Grant Takes Command and Battle Above the Clouds.

Heck, I organized counters for Air Cav last night and hope to get it on the table soon.

Maybe it'll lead to the price dumping on some awesome old games and people who appreciate them can get them at more realistic prices rather than the hoarding that seems to be going on right now.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: kira1y on July 09, 2014, 04:26:55 pm
So, do you care if a board wargame system is or isn't currently active?
No.

I mean systems that are currently 'inactive' still have veteran players and even original designers that you can ask questions of. Doesn't send like a death to me.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: sparty on July 09, 2014, 04:30:54 pm
So, do you care if a board wargame system is or isn't currently active?
No.

I mean systems that are currently 'inactive' still have veteran players and even original designers that you can ask questions of. Doesn't send like a death to me.

A game is dead when it's dead to me, but generally when that's the case I don't own it any longer.  There are plenty of games that are "dead" to me that are still very much actively played, supported, and developed with new releases even.  It just seems sad and arbitrary to call something dead definitively.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Calandale on July 09, 2014, 11:50:20 pm
I've been mulling over this after reading numerous posts on various forums about MMP's Napoleonic Brigade Series. At some point, almost inevitably, someone says something like 'yeah, but it's dead now' as if it's not worth playing anymore because no new games in the series are being designed. I don't get that attitude.


Eh? I play games from my earliest era in the hobby. Hell, I play games from a decade before that - but the big joys for me started with the late 70's.
I am fully in FAVOR of games not constantly evolving.



Quote
Does it come from an acceptance of designers getting away with 'living rules', where they can patch up design flaws well after a game is released? I mean, the NBS rules are pretty polished now, being on version 3.0, which to me is pretty stable.

2.0 (or so) was pretty stable too. 3.0, to me, is akin to the LOB changes when viewed in light of RSS.

What makes NBS 'dead' is that no one is making new games for it. :(


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Rockhopper on July 10, 2014, 07:44:52 am
"Dead" or not has no bearing on me whatsoever. I stopped believing that I'd ever "master" any one "system" anyways!
 
I love Musket & Pike, but if they killed it, I'd be fine with the three games I have.

I nabbed Talavera during the holiday sale last year, I think it was like $15. I haven't played it yet, but I'm sure I've gotten my money's worth from a dead game already.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Carl Marl on July 10, 2014, 08:48:15 am
There is another process at work that create dead wargame systems. That is the reissue of old titles. Often when the publisher reissues a game, they make so many changes it's not the same game at all. It just shares the same title.

Here's the problem for me. You get excited to see that a game is being republished that you missed out buying the first time. Then you read the reviews of the republished game and it's disappointment time.

Not that that's much of a problem compared to real problems.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Calandale on July 10, 2014, 09:50:16 am

I love Musket & Pike, but if they killed it, I'd be fine with the three games I have.


I'd be fine if M&P stopped - I've been less impressed with the recent designs.
Same rules, but the scenarios aren't as clean to play.

But here's the thing - I'm very sad that NBS stopped. There are so damned many
Napoleonic battles that I want to play out with my favorite system. So, I feel as
though I need to find a new favorite. I have to give up a design that I was fully
committed to.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Rockhopper on July 10, 2014, 10:45:36 am

I love Musket & Pike, but if they killed it, I'd be fine with the three games I have.


I'd be fine if M&P stopped - I've been less impressed with the recent designs.
Same rules, but the scenarios aren't as clean to play.

But here's the thing - I'm very sad that NBS stopped. There are so damned many
Napoleonic battles that I want to play out with my favorite system. So, I feel as
though I need to find a new favorite. I have to give up a design that I was fully
committed to.

Hm, you've got me thinking now. I'm probably happy with M&P because there's a lot more of it. And, the rules were up to 5.0 when I got in with NGBG.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I may not even have anything to contribute to the conversation because I've never really been engaged with a new system as it came out and was developed over a series of releases. I just got back into gaming in 2009, so the stuff I've fallen in love with (GBoH, M&P, OCS, etc) were already established and never in danger of being killed off.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: kira1y on July 10, 2014, 11:22:33 am
But here's the thing - I'm very sad that NBS stopped.
How different is NBS from CWBS (another "dead" system)?


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Calandale on July 10, 2014, 12:44:01 pm

Now that I'm thinking about it, I may not even have anything to contribute to the conversation because I've never really been engaged with a new system as it came out and was developed over a series of releases. I just got back into gaming in 2009, so the stuff I've fallen in love with (GBoH, M&P, OCS, etc) were already established and never in danger of being killed off.

It's better to get in late, IMO. The number of times I upgraded my SFB stuff makes me sick.
GBoh - the deluxe editions include more scenarios and such. Early adopters get screwed.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Calandale on July 10, 2014, 12:45:43 pm
But here's the thing - I'm very sad that NBS stopped.
How different is NBS from CWBS (another "dead" system)?

NBS 1.0 was very similar. 2.0 made some pretty important changes, but still held the same clear parentage.
With 3.0, my first reaction was wtf. It works quite well though (better than the earlier ones).

I'm hoping LOB does so well for me. My first impression is negative.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: sparty on July 10, 2014, 10:28:01 pm
I'm hoping LOB does so well for me. My first impression is negative.

Not to drag this insanely off topic... 

I'm curious about your take on the this system.

I liked LOB v1 with None But Heroes.  However, retreat and artillery was cumbersome.  In particular, the chaos strewn by broken units freaking out good order units along the way.  In concept it was a cool idea.  In practice, it was a crap-load of moving stuff around without substantive payoff.

The streamlining that was done, at least to me, made the game easier to teach and learn.  The downside to me is the oddball calculations about how many units are using what kind of weaponry and what percentage of the overall units that constitutes to determine a firepower rating...so there's a strange melange of "We've streamlined X, but decided to leave Y untouched even though it's equally awkward."

Curious to get your take!


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Calandale on July 11, 2014, 12:06:36 am
I shan't really know until I play with it. I'm not thrilled with losing the detail of
stragglers and I liked loose cannons. RSS didn't terribly impress me though -
it was too much in some ways.

We'll see though - I almost didn't try NBS V3 (thought about retrofitting back to V2),
and it's really impressed me.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: The Grinch on July 15, 2014, 07:58:18 am
(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060806122101/memoryalpha/en/images/4/4e/McCoy_Marcus_Kirk.jpg)
"It's really not dead... as long as we still play it."


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Sluggonics on July 15, 2014, 08:54:01 am
For a while there, publishers going out of business was a bigger threat to game systems than the systems themselves ending on their own or being abandoned by their designers.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Empreur on July 15, 2014, 01:14:58 pm
The biggest barrier I find for "dead" systems is that with my pool of local opponents (and online VASSAL ones too for that matter) is that the games can be hard and/or expensive to find.

I loved Great Medieval Battles from SPI when I was in high school, and played it endlessly with a friend of mine. It's a 35 year old game. I even have two copies.

Nobody else I know does. And the rules aren't online. And copies are rare and hard to come by. I can certainly teach my opponents to play, but when we have a large repertoire of current in print easily available games in common, it becomes yet another barrier to getting these "dead" games to the tabel.

If I were a solo player, it wouldn't matter. And at that, I buy games I want for any number of reasons, including ones that simply won't ever get played.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: anarchy on July 15, 2014, 02:21:51 pm
Whether a game or system is dead is pretty irrelevant to me. The bigger problem is the large number of games published each year that I want, buy, read, punch and stick on the shelf -- without getting played. My unplayed stack is rising faster than I can play games off of it.

I don't even consider whether or not a game is dead when I finally play it.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Calandale on July 15, 2014, 02:26:54 pm
I can certainly teach my opponents to play, but when we have a large repertoire of current in print easily available games in common, it becomes yet another barrier to getting these "dead" games to the tabel.


I find this preferable (from either side) from coming in to play something everyone knows, for some reason.
Maybe because I have to relearn everything anyhow.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: anarchy on July 15, 2014, 02:30:22 pm
I do prefer games that have PDF rules available. My wargame buddy and I don't have a lot of time, so we prefer to spend most of it playing, instead of rules explanations, set up, etc. With a PDF, the player who doesn't own the game can at least read the rules ahead of time to gain some familiarity. (I learn a lot better when I have the components to push around while reading, however, so it's not perfect.)

I'd go as far to say, that if we can't have a PDF of the rules, we probably won't play it. And that is a potential strike against older, dead games.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Calandale on July 15, 2014, 02:32:37 pm
Scanner?


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: anarchy on July 15, 2014, 02:33:40 pm
Scanner?
Sometimes, but that's a lot of work and we're pretty gawddamn lazy.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: sparty on July 17, 2014, 08:16:23 pm
I'd go as far to say, that if we can't have a PDF of the rules, we probably won't play it.

This is becoming more and more important to me as well.  I rarely have time to read game rules except before bed which means I get 5 pages tops before I pass out and I have to read by tablet so I need the PDF...heck I even shelled out $6 for the Battles from the Age of Reason rulebook despite PAYING ONCE to buy the damn thing with the game because it's worth me having.  I find that approach 100% repulsive, but apparently even 100% isn't enough to keep me from shelling out my $6.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Robin Hoodlum on July 17, 2014, 09:50:48 pm

So, do you care if a board wargame system is or isn't currently active?

Absolutely not.
That seems shallow and elitist... to me anyway.
I don't need to be part of the next big thing, or to jump on the same wagon everybody else is riding on.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: pnpfanatic on July 17, 2014, 10:57:10 pm
One of the things that brought me back to wargaming is that tabletop wargames are timeless and don't rely on websites or obscure operating systems...or even electricity. Which is handy when the power goes out...I just pop the headlamp on and start playing :)


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Rockhopper on July 18, 2014, 09:48:24 am

That seems shallow and elitist... to me anyway.


I certainly don't agree with this. There are TONS of games out there, and we have limited time. I can certainly understand if someone wished to play enough of something to get really good, with the hopes of making it "their" game for the rest of their lives. Let's be honest... there are some complex games out there that really do require an intellectual, economic, and temporal investment.  So one with such an inclination would certainly be interested in choosing a game/system that is well supported, advertised for, and continues to attract some kind of fan base.

Would anyone still be playing World in Flames, if it never evolved through rules updates and expansions? What if wifwendell had tacked himself onto SPI's old Cobra in the 80's? Would he still be playing it? And does cobrawindell have the same ring?  ;D


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: Calandale on July 18, 2014, 10:11:21 am

That seems shallow and elitist... to me anyway.


I certainly don't agree with this. There are TONS of games out there, and we have limited time. I can certainly understand if someone wished to play enough of something to get really good, with the hopes of making it "their" game for the rest of their lives. Let's be honest... there are some complex games out there that really do require an intellectual, economic, and temporal investment.  So one with such an inclination would certainly be interested in choosing a game/system that is well supported, advertised for, and continues to attract some kind of fan base.

Would anyone still be playing World in Flames, if it never evolved through rules updates and expansions? What if wifwendell had tacked himself onto SPI's old Cobra in the 80's? Would he still be playing it? And does cobrawindell have the same ring?  ;D

I think I'd be fine getting back into SFB, where I left off. Or Car Wars. I don't know
how much further support these games got, but dead is not an issue in and of itself.

The CWB series IS dead - but, hasn't really needed any tinkering for a long time (even
if Dean kept doing so). While something may be too rough around the edges early
on for a lifetime commitment, once a game reaches a solid state, I don't see why
it matters that someone keeps changing things.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: sparty on July 18, 2014, 12:03:34 pm
I thought that SJG was going to be putting together an epic Car Wars Kickstarter a la Ogre sometime in the near future.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: anarchy on July 18, 2014, 12:08:08 pm
I thought that SJG was going to be putting together an epic Car Wars Kickstarter a la Ogre sometime in the near future.

It's not going to Kickstarter right away. A classic edition is coming out this October:

http://thegaminggang.com/game-news/origins-2014-car-wars-classic-returns-this-october-from-steve-jackson-games/

It is a reprint of the original microgames-style edition, from what I can tell.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: KevinR on July 18, 2014, 12:34:51 pm
I thought that SJG was going to be putting together an epic Car Wars Kickstarter a la Ogre sometime in the near future.

As anarchy noted, Car Wars Classic is headed into distribution and Mini Car Wars is already available (maybe a Warehouse23 exclusive).  These are both basically straight reprints of the 20+-year-old versions.  I think Phil Reed said that Classic is a reprint of the 1990 edition.

The sixth edition (for Kickstarter) is still under development.  A couple months back SJG brought back Scott Haring into a new Car Wars Line Editor position, and they are doing in-office playtests.  Apparently driving and crashing is working adequately, so current focus is on rebalancing the shooting.  I'd be surprised if it heads for Kickstarter before mid-2015 at this point.

[disclosure:  although I'm a moderator for the Ogre forum over at SJG, I'm not an employee or directly involved in the Car Wars side.]


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: sparty on July 18, 2014, 12:43:37 pm
Thanks for the updates.  I will never forget my Christmas morning in 1992 opening up Car Wars Deluxe and Midville.  I'm sure my dad won't either as he realized as soon as the box was opened that he'd be responsible for cutting out all those cars with a hobby knife...he merely sighed and went to work on it.  Now I'm the father and realize what a pain in the butt it is to take time out of the day to do that kind of tedious work when there are guests at the house and other things that need attention! 

All that to say ... when the kickstarter gets released (HOPEFULLY in 2015!!!!) I'll be the first person in it pledging away like a damn fool.  I loved what I got from the Ogre KS and the wait was TOTALLY worth the payoff.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: anarchy on July 18, 2014, 01:00:44 pm
Kevin,
Thanks for the details. Glad to hear they are putting the new edition of Car Wars into gear.


Title: Re: 'Dead' wargame systems - why does it matter?
Post by: usrlocal on July 26, 2014, 11:27:13 pm
Thread continues here:

http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php?topic=16.0