Title: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 10:08:58 am Any games that you tackled and just said you didn't want to be bothered with the level of work
required to play them? Either in terms of hugely burdensome rules, or mechanical complexity. Where you think the game itself might be fine, but you couldn't enjoy because of the extra effort required. For me, I can think of a few recent cases. Chosin - which had too many large stacks filled with fire-capable units with fairly long ranges (3-4 hexes) clustered together. Trying to decide how to allocate all that firepower was just beyond me. On top of that, there were a lot of finicky rules that amounted to bookkeeping. Battles of the Age of Reason - Damned die rolls for every hex moved (artillery op fire) was just ridiculous. The rest of the game was pretty decent. Stretching further back - Flashpoint Golan - I really respect this design, but the ECM/ECCM rules and a number of other system were just too much effort. A lot of the modern conflict VG designs actually were pushing my tolerance for so much detail in a subject matter that I'm less interested in though. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Rockhopper on July 14, 2014, 12:44:02 pm Fields of Fire. I like solitaire games, and this seems so cool, but I just can't get through the rules. I just don't have the chunks of time I need to sit down and plow through it properly. So I've set it up, then promptly packed it back up and picked something else that I knew how to play.
Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 01:04:16 pm The High Frontier second expansion is feeling that way to me (though no wargame).
I'm going to play an HF scenario to catch back up on the core rules to get to where I can tackle it though. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: usrlocal on July 14, 2014, 01:23:19 pm Kevin: There are some good FoF tutorial vids on YouTube that help to explain the game:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Z7CoHD82M (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Z7CoHD82M) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e_xMPIckzM0 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e_xMPIckzM0) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=85-Unc2F4nc (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=85-Unc2F4nc) The second two links above are the first two vids in a series - you'll easily find the rest on YouTube. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Rockhopper on July 14, 2014, 01:38:25 pm Thanks man, but I've indeed downloaded the 10-part youtube series, but honestly... its like taking an unfun game, then watching a youtube video at the same time.
Unfun game + youtube = unfunner game. ;D I'm still a Ben Hull fanboy though, so no worries. And I still have great hope to pick this up eventually. I even P500'd FoF2, maybe the USMC subject matter will give me a nudge. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: usrlocal on July 14, 2014, 01:58:53 pm The High Frontier second expansion is feeling that way to me (though no wargame). I'm going to play an HF scenario to catch back up on the core rules to get to where I can tackle it though. I picked up the new expansion a while back too, but haven't had time to look at it very closely yet. Isn't it supposed to streamline some parts? Like not linking political events to the movement track? Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 02:31:00 pm The High Frontier second expansion is feeling that way to me (though no wargame). I'm going to play an HF scenario to catch back up on the core rules to get to where I can tackle it though. I picked up the new expansion a while back too, but haven't had time to look at it very closely yet. Isn't it supposed to streamline some parts? Like not linking political events to the movement track? I don't know if that's streamlining. There are a few little fixes - some for incongruities like that, and some for gameplay/balance. Most of it is these modules though - each supposedly stand-alone, and I'm finding them impossible to grasp without moving pieces around first. Phil's rules just keep getting worse and worse. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: kira1y on July 14, 2014, 02:41:14 pm Battles of the Age of Reason - Damned die rolls for every hex moved (artillery op fire) was just ridiculous. I thought artillery op fire was restricted to short range (2-3 hexes) in BAR? Anyway, one game that comes to mind with this topic are the Fighting Wings Series games from Clash of Arms. While they do look like they'd be interesting, there seems to be a whole hell of a lot more work than I am interested in messing with. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 02:43:16 pm Battles of the Age of Reason - Damned die rolls for every hex moved (artillery op fire) was just ridiculous. I thought artillery op fire was restricted to short range (2-3 hexes) in BAR? I wouldn't put it past me to have fucked it up. :P It was pretty ridiculous, because it didn't do a damned thing anyhow. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: usrlocal on July 14, 2014, 03:54:42 pm I really want to try BAR. It looks so juicily...difficult.
Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 04:16:35 pm Rules didn't feel any worse than a lot of minis systems.
Less emphasis on graphical presentation, and more on clarity, and there just wouldn't be much terrible difficulty with them. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: kira1y on July 14, 2014, 04:31:31 pm I really want to try BAR. It looks so juicily...difficult. It's easier to pick up than La Bataille.Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: usrlocal on July 14, 2014, 04:43:25 pm I really want to try BAR. It looks so juicily...difficult. It's easier to pick up than La Bataille.Interesting. Maybe I'll start with BAR before LaBat then. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: anarchy on July 14, 2014, 05:20:33 pm ASL kicked my ass. Multiple times. I joined the SoCal ASL group and tried for a year to learn the game, but it was just too much.
But ASLSK is perfect, so there's that. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Robin Hoodlum on July 14, 2014, 05:35:09 pm Soldiers... the magazine game by Decision.
It just seemed like too much effort for too little return. Too many counters on the map, all of which can fire at range. Hard to keep track of who fired at what without using some kind of counter to denote it. *shrug* I just didn't enjoy the game at all. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 05:36:08 pm ASL kicked my ass. Multiple times. I joined the SoCal ASL group and tried for a year to learn the game, but it was just too much. But ASLSK is perfect, so there's that. I liked ASL Red Barricades. I really couldn't get the point with the little scenarios. Didn't get playing a lot of ship vs. ship in SFB either. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: anarchy on July 14, 2014, 05:50:01 pm I liked ASL Red Barricades. I really couldn't get the point with the little scenarios. I'm kind of itching to get Decision at Elst a try, but I'm not quite there yet.Didn't get playing a lot of ship vs. ship in SFB either. I do not understand tournament SFB play. At all. For that matter, I don't understand one ship vs. one ship in SFB. Or any spaceship combat game. Of which I've played a bunch. 1-on-1 duels aren't that interesting to me. Fleet combat is far superior. When I was young and had time, we used to play 4-5 player SFB battles with 2-3 ships per player. Was good times. I don't think I would have that patience to play that way again, however. Federation Commander is more my speed these days. Or something even faster. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: ekted on July 14, 2014, 05:53:35 pm I was particularly disappointed with the GBoH rules. I was excited about the system at first, and I think there's a lot of fun in there. But I don't think Berg can explain how his games are supposed to work, and I don't think I can tolerate the level of effort required to squeeze out the information. Every time I've tried, I simply get pushback from
Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 06:00:34 pm I liked ASL Red Barricades. I really couldn't get the point with the little scenarios. I'm kind of itching to get Decision at Elst a try, but I'm not quite there yet.Didn't get playing a lot of ship vs. ship in SFB either. I do not understand tournament SFB play. At all. For that matter, I don't understand one ship vs. one ship in SFB. Or any spaceship combat game. Of which I've played a bunch. 1-on-1 duels aren't that interesting to me. Fleet combat is far superior. When I was young and had time, we used to play 4-5 player SFB battles with 2-3 ships per player. Was good times. I don't think I would have that patience to play that way again, however. Federation Commander is more my speed these days. Or something even faster. Yeah. I did most of mine solo - but a decent number of two-player campaigns. That was where it was for me - playing out the Fed & Emp battles. I like the level of detail SFB gave, but wish it was more believable. Formalizing something like it for Traveller combat (using Fifth Frontier War or Imperium as the campaign) would be a great goal for me. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 06:02:25 pm I was particularly disappointed with the GBoH rules. I was excited about the system at first, and I think there's a lot of fun in there. But I don't think Berg can explain how his games are supposed to work, and I don't think I can tolerate the level of effort required to squeeze out the information. Every time I've tried, I simply get pushback from How DARE you question Berg? I don't think he's terribly good at getting the details right in much of anything actually. BUT, I like the level of detail he aims for in GBoH. That's good enough for me. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: capt_s on July 14, 2014, 06:11:07 pm I really want to try BAR. It looks so juicily...difficult. It's easier to pick up than La Bataille.Interesting. Maybe I'll start with BAR before LaBat then. Oh.... so THIS is where the cool kids are hanging out now .... Why do I feel like the younger brother all the older kids are fleeing from? :P Been too many years since I played BAR and I am anxious about getting back into it. Especially since Fontenoy and now Prague have come out somewhat recently. I hope to play some this autumn, but I said that last autumn to no avail. Sigh. ************** Game too big? I haven't met it yet, but I purchase carefully. Well .... Empire of the Sun is a little intimidating. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: usrlocal on July 14, 2014, 06:19:46 pm Oh.... so THIS is where the cool kids are hanging out now .... Why do I feel like the younger brother all the older kids are fleeing from? Dude! Your most important decision right now is your avatar choice: farting Captain Scarlet or Brock Samson. The world awaits! Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 06:21:47 pm Oh.... so THIS is where the cool kids are hanging out now .... Why do I feel like the younger brother all the older kids are fleeing from? You are absolutely welcome here. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Trynant on July 14, 2014, 06:30:35 pm The High Frontier second expansion is feeling that way to me (though no wargame). I'm going to play an HF scenario to catch back up on the core rules to get to where I can tackle it though. Colonization's biggest annoyance to me is wrapping my head around all the new stacks and tracking where exactly the hell they go. Most of that had to do with the out-of-the-box rulebook being a maze of particulars that had to be cross-referenced with the original rules to see what changed. The living rules and a few extra markers made the game far less daunting. EDIT: Well crap I forgot to bother answering the topic's question. Next War: Korea is currently being a real uphill struggle, mostly because of the amount of printouts of errata and living rules it's demanding. It's also a game I'm having a hard time visualizing the play and compartmentalizing mentally. That SoP goes on forever. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: capt_s on July 14, 2014, 06:31:23 pm Oh.... so THIS is where the cool kids are hanging out now .... Why do I feel like the younger brother all the older kids are fleeing from? Dude! Your most important decision right now is your avatar choice: farting Captain Scarlet or Brock Samson. The world awaits! I could not load up the pic I wanted, so here is Brock. Who may or may not be farting. Perhaps that is why he is clenching on the knife? Perhaps .... no doubt his farts are like howitzer shots ... ************ PS - Thanks for the welcome! Happy to join the party. I'll spike the punch. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: kira1y on July 14, 2014, 06:34:36 pm I've tried, I simply get pushback from Hell, Berg spends most of his time on CSW saying that very thing. Dude's a pompous ass.Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 06:36:36 pm I've tried, I simply get pushback from Hell, Berg spends most of his time on CSW saying that very thing. Dude's a pompous ass.His personality leaves a LOT to be desired. Compare him to Herman. It's hard to believe they work together. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Trynant on July 14, 2014, 06:44:54 pm I've tried, I simply get pushback from Hell, Berg spends most of his time on CSW saying that very thing. Dude's a pompous ass.His personality leaves a LOT to be desired. Compare him to Herman. It's hard to believe they work together. A friend and I were playing Fighting Formations at a convention where Berg was attending. He walks up to us and looks over the game. He asks something along the lines of "Is this another Nazi-lover game?" I got the impression that he's snarky, but kind of in an almost endearing way. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 14, 2014, 06:49:14 pm I've tried, I simply get pushback from Hell, Berg spends most of his time on CSW saying that very thing. Dude's a pompous ass.His personality leaves a LOT to be desired. Compare him to Herman. It's hard to believe they work together. A friend and I were playing Fighting Formations at a convention where Berg was attending. He walks up to us and looks over the game. He asks something along the lines of "Is this another Nazi-lover game?" I got the impression that he's snarky, but kind of in an almost endearing way. Meh. I posted some anti obama joke meme, and he defriended me on facebook. He had no problem with the preponderance of my bleeding heart liberal crap. People who try and shut out ideas have nothing to recommend them. If he just didn't want all the political crap, that would be fine. But he made it quite clear that he just didn't want stuff that worked with his echo chamber. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: anarchy on July 14, 2014, 06:50:53 pm A friend and I were playing Fighting Formations at a convention where Berg was attending. He walks up to us and looks over the game. He asks something along the lines of "Is this another Nazi-lover game?" ...I got the impression that he's snarky, but kind of in an almost endearing way. Erm. I'm not sure I would use the word "endearing" with Berg. In any capacity. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: usrlocal on July 14, 2014, 07:00:06 pm I could not load up the pic I wanted, so here is Brock. Who may or may not be farting. Perhaps that is why he is clenching on the knife? Perhaps .... no doubt his farts are like howitzer shots ... (http://youtu.be/meSTUoaaOWQ) Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: capt_s on July 14, 2014, 07:08:22 pm I had that album ....
:D Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Sluggonics on July 14, 2014, 07:09:56 pm A friend and I were playing Fighting Formations at a convention where Berg was attending. He walks up to us and looks over the game. He asks something along the lines of "Is this another Nazi-lover game?" ...I got the impression that he's snarky, but kind of in an almost endearing way. Erm. I'm not sure I would use the word "endearing" with Berg. In any capacity. Yeah, I don't think his snark is really endearing - it's more just cranky old man snarkiness. That said, he does have a pretty sharp wit, and I enjoy reading the witty tidbits he sneaks into his rules. As for any games I've bailed on because they were too much for me to handle... I've never bailed on a game for those reasons. Some games have been really tough to get through, but that's what won't make me quit. I usually quit games if I'm just not "feeling" the subject, or some other topic captures my attention. Then I just clean it up and move on to what my heart really wants to play. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Paul on July 14, 2014, 11:27:30 pm "Home before the Leaves Fall," by David Bolt. We were going to play this on the 100th anniversary of the Marne Campaign, but the 150-odd pages of rules and scenario set-up just crushed us. It took some time before someone was willing to admit they didn't want to play, but when the discussion started everyone agreed pretty quickly (and I think with some relief) that this one would stay on the shelf where it's been for the past 17 years. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: 91Caprice on July 15, 2014, 03:51:34 am A World at War by GMT. I bought the 2013 reprint last year. I'm not sure about his game. Perhaps you could attempt a review to help someone like me understand this?
Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: capt_s on July 15, 2014, 07:28:03 am Actually, upon reflection, La Bat was a game series that intimidated me in the past. Until I actually played it that is.
Not that it was easy to get into. I poured over the rules and made myself some rule reminders. Like study notes. Then after a complete muck up of a first playing I reread/revised my notes and tried again. Finally, the mechanics all came together at that point. I was playing Quatre Bras at the time. So I suppose the thought of tackling it did hold me back initially. What I find for any game these days is that I need to be really into the subject to play it. Much more so when playing solitaire. If not, then any solo effort will dry up on the tale. You know ..... set up .... sit for months ..... pack up. And "being into" is code for reading a good book on the subject at the same time. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: lucasbrooks on July 15, 2014, 12:18:30 pm Barbarossa: Crimea. I really wanted to play it. I studied the rules. I sat down to play. And, bam. Nothing made any sense. I tried. Multiple times. And then just threw in the towel. Maybe someday. But not today.
Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Sluggonics on July 15, 2014, 12:46:37 pm Barbarossa: Crimea. I really wanted to play it. I studied the rules. I sat down to play. And, bam. Nothing made any sense. I tried. Multiple times. And then just threw in the towel. Maybe someday. But not today. I had this problem with rules in general when I got back into wargaming. I remember it most vividly when I got Virgin Queen, which was one of the first games I got in my initial foray back into wargaming. For some reason, the rules just did not make sense to me. It was like I was reading them in a foreign language. I thought "what's wrong with me? This shouldn't be this difficult." So I set them aside to come back to. And I had other issues with working my way through wargame rules - so it was pretty slow at first. But then I forced myself to sit down and learn 1914: Twilight in the East - it was going to be a do or die deal, and it ended up working. That helped me kind of form a system of working through the rules for complex games. Since then, I haven't had any issues with not being able to work out rules. Even went back to the Virgin Queen rules and thought "why did I find these so difficult? This doesn't seem too difficult at all!" Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: moujamou on July 15, 2014, 12:52:06 pm I was dead keen on OCS for a bit but I haven't been able to concentrate on the rules for any useful length of time. Its probably just laziness though. Might have to just toss it off and play easy games instead.
Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 15, 2014, 01:14:48 pm Barbarossa: Crimea. I really wanted to play it. I studied the rules. I sat down to play. And, bam. Nothing made any sense. I tried. Multiple times. And then just threw in the towel. Maybe someday. But not today. I had this problem with rules in general when I got back into wargaming. I remember it most vividly when I got Virgin Queen, which was one of the first games I got in my initial foray back into wargaming. For some reason, the rules just did not make sense to me. It was like I was reading them in a foreign language. I thought "what's wrong with me? This shouldn't be this difficult." So I set them aside to come back to. And I had other issues with working my way through wargame rules - so it was pretty slow at first. But then I forced myself to sit down and learn 1914: Twilight in the East - it was going to be a do or die deal, and it ended up working. That helped me kind of form a system of working through the rules for complex games. Since then, I haven't had any issues with not being able to work out rules. Even went back to the Virgin Queen rules and thought "why did I find these so difficult? This doesn't seem too difficult at all!" Styles of rules changed a lot. It takes effort to learn those new changes. I'm still not comfortable with a lot of newer sets. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: drep on July 15, 2014, 03:07:40 pm I had this problem with rules in general when I got back into wargaming. I remember it most vividly when I got Virgin Queen, which was one of the first games I got in my initial foray back into wargaming. For some reason, the rules just did not make sense to me. It was like I was reading them in a foreign language. I thought "what's wrong with me? This shouldn't be this difficult." So I set them aside to come back to. And I had other issues with working my way through wargame rules - so it was pretty slow at first. But then I forced myself to sit down and learn 1914: Twilight in the East - it was going to be a do or die deal, and it ended up working. That helped me kind of form a system of working through the rules for complex games. Since then, I haven't had any issues with not being able to work out rules. Even went back to the Virgin Queen rules and thought "why did I find these so difficult? This doesn't seem too difficult at all!" I had the same experience. Came back to wargaming after 20 years with Here I Stand, SPQR and Lock n' Load Heroes of the Gap. Like you said, it was like another language. I kept bouncing from rulebook to rulebook befuddled at my inability for things to click. SPQR finally cracked after treating it like a textbook and taking notes. It was frustrating at the time, but in hindsight I was able to appreciate how much rules had evolved since my Avalon Hill days. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: KevinR on July 15, 2014, 03:18:03 pm One that just hasn't clicked for me, despite several attempts, is The Kaiser's Pirates. I've screwed up at least four major rules playing the solitaire mode (the last being the safe passage rule). I think that I'm just not treating it seriously, thinking "it's just a card game".
It's portable enough that I may take it on vacation and try to cram in a couple games in a day to break through. Maybe I'll even be able to get within 80% of the programmed opponent... Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: capt_s on July 15, 2014, 07:30:36 pm One that just hasn't clicked for me, despite several attempts, is The Kaiser's Pirates.... That's a tricky situation. I too have problems reading rules these days. In general that is. It has been an issue for a few years now. However ... once I start to push cardboard and apply the rules they usually gel for me. If I was still having problems after playing that game I would start to get concerned. I had that issue with Fire in the Sky. It is a nuancy bugger that one. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 15, 2014, 08:05:43 pm I too have problems reading rules these days. In general that is. It has been an issue for a few years now. However ... once I start to push cardboard and apply the rules they usually gel for me. Are you having trouble with old-style rules too though? I feel that I can still absorb those fairly well. It's as though the whole paradigm for how to present has shifted - IMO towards the sloppier in terms of giving a good view of what is going on. But maybe it's just that every damned game is so different. :P Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Eric Brosius on July 15, 2014, 08:09:54 pm I got the impression that he's snarky, but kind of in an almost endearing way. Near where I grew up in Philadelphia there was a deli whose schtick was insulting the customers. A party would come in and the hostess would make some snarky comment and they'd all giggle. That's how I feel Berg is: he almost thinks that's his main selling point.I realized not too long ago that other than games I got in magazines, the only Berg designs I own are "Terrible Swift Sword" (1976) and "War of the Ring" (1977). I had a lot of fun with TSS back in the day. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Eric Brosius on July 15, 2014, 08:11:02 pm There are no wargames that are too much for me.
[...] There are only ones I haven't gotten around to playing competently yet. Like Empire of the Sun. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Paul on July 15, 2014, 08:49:46 pm Quote Are you having trouble with old-style rules too though? I feel that I can still absorb those fairly well. I've experienced this as well, and put it down to age until I went back and played older (and complex) games with no problems at all. What I think has changed is the amount of "one off" rules designers are expecting gamers to take on board. "So and so communications network will go offline for seven game turns when side X does this." Sometimes these special rules can amount to 20 pages and finding mnemonics to remember them is almost impossible. They are events not set in time (game turn three do this) but tied to actions (sometimes relatively minor actions) that start some event chain that can be pretty significant for the game. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Ashiefan on July 16, 2014, 06:59:52 am I find some games too complex to play solo - the work involved isn't counterbalanced by the enjoyment of pitting wits etc... of a ftf. There isn't the sharing of rules comprehension either - it's all on my shoulders. La Batt comes into this category. I'd love to play this opposed but haven't found any willing opponents yet. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: capt_s on July 16, 2014, 07:32:04 am I too have problems reading rules these days Are you having trouble with old-style rules too though? I feel that I can still absorb those fairly well. It's as though the whole paradigm for how to present has shifted - IMO towards the sloppier in terms of giving a good view of what is going on. But maybe it's just that every damned game is so different. :P Good question. I am not 100% sure. I assumed that a deteriorating ability to focus as I age was the issue, but perhaps it is how some modern rules are written. I have not tested your notion of late except that I was able to read those from "A Famous Victory" without an issue. So perhaps you are on to something. For example, I had a dickens of a time with rules from the COIN series. Even though it is really quite a simple game. This was partly due to their having unusual mechanics (for me). But also I think it had to do with how they were presented. Now I have no trouble with them since I am used to the games. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 16, 2014, 07:41:37 am I too have problems reading rules these days Are you having trouble with old-style rules too though? I feel that I can still absorb those fairly well. It's as though the whole paradigm for how to present has shifted - IMO towards the sloppier in terms of giving a good view of what is going on. But maybe it's just that every damned game is so different. :P Good question. I am not 100% sure. I assumed that a deteriorating ability to focus as I age was the issue, but perhaps it is how some modern rules are written. I have not tested your notion of late except that I was able to read those from "A Famous Victory" without an issue. So perhaps you are on to something. For example, I had a dickens of a time with rules from the COIN series. Even though it is really quite a simple game. This was partly due to their having unusual mechanics (for me). But also I think it had to do with how they were presented. Now I have no trouble with them since I am used to the games. Yeah. I felt like an idiot with GMT's CDGs when I first found them. Then I went and learned OCS - which felt as I remember. It's not just new ideas though (for me). New CDGs are harder to learn (maybe because every damned one handles things differently), and so were fairly standard game designs like GBoH and some VPG stuff. So, I'm blaming the rules mainly. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: capt_s on July 16, 2014, 08:12:20 am On a related note, last week I discovered some of my brother-in-law's old SPI flats. Poking around with Patrol I was struck by the familiarity of the rules layout. It reminded me of those from TSS.
I got the warm fuzzies. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: usrlocal on July 16, 2014, 08:14:11 am On a related note, last week I discovered some of my brother-in-law's old SPI flats. Poking around with Patrol I was struck by the familiarity of the rules layout. It reminded me of those from TSS. I got the warm fuzzies. Just discovering some old SPI flats would give me the warm fuzzies. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: The Grinch on July 16, 2014, 11:13:46 am Europa Universalis - I spent hours pouring over rules and components but in the end I never actually got it on the table. That was before the days of video playthroughs. I'll have to have another go at it sometime.
Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 16, 2014, 01:22:40 pm Europa Universalis - I spent hours pouring over rules and components but in the end I never actually got it on the table. That was before the days of video playthroughs. I'll have to have another go at it sometime. Just remember - the rules aren't complete or consistent, so if you've got the original, you're making stuff up anyhow. :D Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: manhattandoctor on July 16, 2014, 07:20:20 pm Is it feasible for a wargame company, say GMT, to standardize their rules?
Anyone know how they create their rules? Do they have any standard? Is the designer always given free reign? It seems some standards might be worthwhile. For example, always include an index, always have a glossary of abbreviations, use a decimal section system, etc. Series rules get standardized over time, but it still amazes me that a company that's been producing games for decades still produces crap rulebooks. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 16, 2014, 07:35:20 pm They seem to have a formatting standard at GMT, but no more than that.
I don't think they could do the kind of boilerplate that worked for SPI - the games are just too different. On the other hand, the stricter formatting rules worked on some pretty different SPI games (think Freedom in the Galaxy, Canadian Civil War, John Carter, Empires of the Middle Ages), so I dunno. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Thulsa on July 16, 2014, 10:22:11 pm I am new to war gaming in general and I had no chance with Next War: Korea. I will have to return to it after I get more experience.
Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Sluggonics on July 16, 2014, 10:48:34 pm They seem to have a formatting standard at GMT, but no more than that. I don't think they could do the kind of boilerplate that worked for SPI - the games are just too different. On the other hand, the stricter formatting rules worked on some pretty different SPI games (think Freedom in the Galaxy, Canadian Civil War, John Carter, Empires of the Middle Ages), so I dunno. I think the old SPI or Avalon Hill rules were all standardized by in-house editors. GMT doesn't have any editors imposing a uniform style - their formatting is basically just visual, probably whatever Rodger MacGowan formats them into. Since all their games are designed by independent contractors, you get the sort of variance in rules writing that you'd expect from independent contractors all doing their own thing. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: drep on July 16, 2014, 11:01:14 pm I am new to war gaming in general and I had no chance with Next War: Korea. I will have to return to it after I get more experience. That one would be a tricky one for a first game. All the ideas and rules in there have a lineage with classic wargames, and it's just stuffed full of them. Title: Re: Too much for you? Post by: Calandale on July 27, 2014, 05:42:49 am New thread: http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/index.php?topic=34.0 |