One Change....

[stemcider]

I might be wrong but it seems that people are much more willing to do this in miniatures games than they are with board wargames.

And much more willing to do it in board wargames than in euros....

Yeah I've played with some people who feel like they've wasted time if they make rules mistakes in euros, luckily the group I usually play with are ok about stuff like that but there is a strange sort of drive to make sure that rules are exactly as the designer intended. That's something I find refreshing about wargames, the living rules, tweaks, and house rules both gamers and designers come up with.

Probably an interesting topic, do people feel like they have wasted time if games aren't played "correctly". Would you stop a game and start from scratch or just go with it and make the rule change?

It depends on the game and the rule missed.

Missing rules is part of the ASL experience, I think. I can see why this could be a huge turnoff for competitive players since it does often devolve into a 'whoever can remember the rules better wins' scenario. All the games I have played, however, both players have missed rules, both in their favor and not, so it has sort of balanced itself out.

Navajo Wars is so procedural that if you miss a single step it can hugely swing the game. That's part of the reason I just can't get into it. Halfway through a game, I realize I forget to do something two turns ago that would have resulted in a snowball-like effect and it would've completely changed the gamestate.

Many euros are like this, and yes, I feel that getting the rules correctly is more important for them. As many people say, euros are essentially a clever collection of rules and mechanisms, and I get the most enjoyment out of seeing how the rules and mechanisms interact, so missing or changing rules can ruin a game. That's why I will usually solo a learning game, solo a 'real' game, then play a learning game with other players, then play a 'real' game with other players, before I pass judgement on it. Wargames I often just jump right in, especially because I can correct rules I got wrong or missed before playing the next scenario, or chalk it down to the 'chaotic nature of warfare.'

[Calandale]

Missing rules is part of the ASL experience, I think. I can see why this could be a huge turnoff for competitive players since it does often devolve into a 'whoever can remember the rules better wins' scenario. All the games I have played, however, both players have missed rules, both in their favor and not, so it has sort of balanced itself out.

I got a real kick out of pulling obscure rules out of my ass for SFB. Probably the closest
experience I had to the ASL die-hard's one. But, I always had a sort of reluctance to
use such. My compromise was that IF it was a surprise type move (like certain payloads
for shuttles) I'd keep it to myself. If it was something I thought anyone should be able
to manage, I'd usually advise an opponent as kinda their chief engineer.

[rodvik]

Anyway my change would be the removal of the odds based CRT in OCS. An odds based CRT is always a mark against a game for me (I loathe them) but in OCS the tedious fiddly factor counting is an additional burden.

What would you replace it with?

By factor counting do you mean trying to get enough strength to push an attack over a certain ratio?

Buckets of dice or a golden number & flip style system like Men of Iron or some such would do the trick, pretty much anything else.

Yeah by factor counting I mean adding up the amounts and then calculating the odds (OCS has that fog of war system to prevent pre counting). But odds based CRTs are so gamey in my eyes, they are pretty much like a record scratch across any design. Some like OCS are so good in other areas they can overcome it, but it is still a negative.

[capt_s]

I have had problems with odds-based CRTs in the past because my math is ****ty poopy...

Either that or I suffer from lazy brain.   

In other words, the problem is mine.

Actually, if the numbers are relatively small I do not mind. Combats found in A Victory Lost come to mind as a good example. I rather enjoyed the odds calculations found in it which is kind of old school.

If strengths start to get past 15 or so I crack under the strain (I am looking at you, Struggle for Europe series). Actually, between the large combat factors and the allowed unit shifts to get the "ultimate" odds (plus a rather overwrought air system), this series broke me. Left me a shell of a player quivering in the corner of the room. Actually .... upon reflection I would say it was the large factors in tandem with the shifting that was the culprit. It was just not for me.

I tend to favour strength based columns with columnar shifts and die roll modifiers. Common enough in tactical and grand tactical games. Those are better for my math ravaged cranium. However, I understand that this system, especially the drms, can be anathema to others. To each their own. Plus I am not so sure such a system would work in operational/strategic games as it makes less sense there.

I do think that not permitting players to look into opposing stacks is brilliant. They can see that there is a stack there, but cannot be sure exactly what is there. So none of that "just one more factor to make it a 3-1" stuff. Bravo to SCS and OCS!! When Bill and I played Afrika II I thought it was a pretty nifty mechanic and my odds-angst went away. Of course, then I had to worry about supply ...

 

[kira1y]

I really like the way Der Weltkrieg handles combat in that there are no odds. Add up your total strength points and attack. There are some DRMs for terrain an what not, but it doesn't matter how strong the defender is, they're taking losses based on your attack strength and that's it.

[capt_s]

I really like the way Der Weltkrieg handles combat in that there are no odds. Add up your total strength points and attack. There are some DRMs for terrain an what not, but it doesn't matter how strong the defender is, they're taking losses based on your attack strength and that's it.

In that respect, it sounds like DW is way more my cup of tea than other games at that level.