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Author Topic: Religion  (Read 1515 times)
weateallthepies
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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2014, 05:55:25 pm »

Yeah. I'm pretty much a complete skeptic. I see the basic survival assumptions
(causality for example) as matters of faith, so I'm coming from a pretty extreme
point of view.

I get closer to that when my anxiety kicks in, not sure I like it though.


My common existence is not easy. Driving thought away is the only means of survival.
Gaming does that. So does drinking. Or spamming.

Yeah I have similar coping activities when anxiety hits, which thankfully I seem to manage a little more effectively than I used to.


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People tell me atheism means I believe there is no God, which by definition isn't true, atheism is my lack of belief in god which is a different thing.



So, how is that any different from agnosticism? And what do we call those people, who self-identify as atheists,
but truly just seem to believe that there is no god? Oh, they may put some cover that "of course we can't know,"
but then proceed to attack the very idea as absurd. Reality itself is absurd - thus Tertullian's misappropriation.

Well if agnosticism is the position where the existence or non existence of god is deemed unknowable, isn't the lack of belief in god a consequence of that rather than it being the same thing? But yes this does rather lead to the inevitable fact that the strict definition of atheism is a bit pointless. If we are going to use strictly defined definitions then maybe we need less flawed ones?

I think I had it right as a child and I should just go back to "I don't believe in god".

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However once I've started thinking about it, is it a lack of belief? Can I actually have a lack of belief about something I am consciously thinking about or do I deep down just believe it isn't true?

You've hit on it here. Belief is belief. You can 'not believe' in the sense of having no real opinion
on the matter. Science as a whole does not believe in god; it is agnostic - makes no statements
which can help to answer the question. But, once you have an opinion on the likelihood, you are
entering the realm of faith. Once you start thinking that it is actually HARD to believe, you are
actively disbelieving.

I'm pretty close to simply not believing. I does largely have no impact on my life, and I rarely think about it except when discussing with other people. The fact that I need a label is only because people claim it, therefore as someone who doesn't have any belief in it I label myself as such when questioned.

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I guess I could start using the term agnostic atheist but then I'd have to explain even more when someone asks me.


Whereas EVERYONE seems to know what agnostic means. The water has only been muddied
by modern atheists, realizing the stronger version of their credo is essentially indefensible,
have squatted into agnosticism - but still are often as rigidly dogmatic as the older version.
They try and hide their faith, because that too seems ridiculous.

Ha, point.

I was quite interested in the modern atheist books, discussions, etc and I've read quite a lot over the years but I've found myself less and less interested as it's turned from interesting discussion to name calling and point scoring. I've no interest in changing peoples opinions, and I've no interest in ridiculing other positions which seems to be what that great surge of books and media on the subject seems to have caused.

I think there is still room for discussion though, and also a need where religious privillage still exists. I get particularly annoyed about the state funded faith school system in this country and if nothing else all the tubthumping has highlighted stuff like that.

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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2014, 06:03:21 pm »

From an evidence-based approach, I would call myself an agnostic over an atheist. To call oneself an atheist would require having absolute knowledge that a god did not exist. Nobody has that sort of omniscience. Of course, defining what a 'god' is, is not unlike defining a 'wargame', IMHO.   Grin
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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2014, 06:10:32 pm »

"God doesn't play Twilight Struggle" ?
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Robin Hoodlum
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2014, 06:12:46 pm »

I'm a Christian.
So, like many other places, I will be made fun of here, ridiculed, mocked, and insulted.
*shrug*
But my religion has nothing to do with my love for wargaming and military history.
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Calandale
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2014, 06:19:34 pm »

Yeah. I'm pretty much a complete skeptic. I see the basic survival assumptions
(causality for example) as matters of faith, so I'm coming from a pretty extreme
point of view.

I get closer to that when my anxiety kicks in, not sure I like it though.


My common existence is not easy. Driving thought away is the only means of survival.
Gaming does that. So does drinking. Or spamming.

Yeah I have similar coping activities when anxiety hits, which thankfully I seem to manage a little more effectively than I used to.


Quote
Quote
People tell me atheism means I believe there is no God, which by definition isn't true, atheism is my lack of belief in god which is a different thing.



So, how is that any different from agnosticism? And what do we call those people, who self-identify as atheists,
but truly just seem to believe that there is no god? Oh, they may put some cover that "of course we can't know,"
but then proceed to attack the very idea as absurd. Reality itself is absurd - thus Tertullian's misappropriation.

Well if agnosticism is the position where the existence or non existence of god is deemed unknowable, isn't the lack of belief in god a consequence of that rather than it being the same thing? But yes this does rather lead to the inevitable fact that the strict definition of atheism is a bit pointless. If we are going to use strictly defined definitions then maybe we need less flawed ones?

Nice. Yes, there is a distinction between believing the question is unanswerable and simply not having the answer. It may be that what
I'd call 'weak atheism' makes the first claim. Until there is proof though, it's still a matter of faith that the answer is unknowable.


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I'm pretty close to simply not believing. I does largely have no impact on my life, and I rarely think about it except when discussing with other people. The fact that I need a label is only because people claim it, therefore as someone who doesn't have any belief in it I label myself as such when questioned.


Simply not believing without thinking though (and obviously you're not doing that as you're discussing this)
strikes me  as something else entirely. Animals and rocks don't believe in god, I suspect, but they also
wouldn't qualify as either atheists or agnostics, IMO. They just don't consider the issue.



Quote
I was quite interested in the modern atheist books, discussions, etc and I've read quite a lot over the years but I've found myself less and less interested as it's turned from interesting discussion to name calling and point scoring. I've no interest in changing peoples opinions, and I've no interest in ridiculing other positions which seems to be what that great surge of books and media on the subject seems to have caused.

I think this is a non-issue in most countries. In the US though, there is this strong religious
current, which is  threatening to those who don't hold such views, AND a core principle of freedom of religion.
Something of a culture war springs up with discrimination on both sides - with faith becoming no longer a merely personal
matter, but a political one.

In some ways, it's hard to see how it cannot, if religious derived beliefs are strongly held. They
WILL come into conflict with one another, and government policies are often rooted in concepts
of morality which are, whether theist or not, matters of faith. Very few people can claim to
know the ultimate 'good'; at least the religious have something which lays down rules for them.




« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 06:21:37 pm by Calandale » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2014, 06:24:43 pm »

I'm a Christian.
So, like many other places, I will be made fun of here, ridiculed, mocked, and insulted.



It's a strange phenomena. The majority in the US ARE Christian (though maybe not too devout?).
Yet, on the web and in academia, it almost has to be hidden - whereas it is nearly impossible to
be elected to statewide office anywhere as an atheist.

Which side feels more threatened by the other? And WHY?
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pnpfanatic
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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2014, 06:31:29 pm »

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 11:24:38 pm by pnpfanatic » Report Spam   Logged
Robin Hoodlum
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2014, 06:35:12 pm »

It's a strange phenomena. The majority in the US ARE Christian (though maybe not too devout?).
I am a Christian, but I suck at it. Tongue


Which side feels more threatened by the other? And WHY?
A good question.
But I see Christianity (and Christians in particular) being attacked/ mocked/ ridiculed everywhere. Not Islam or Confucianism or not Sikhs or Buddhists... just the Christians. People are afraid to announce their Christianity because they fear being mocked/ ridiculed/ discriminated against because of it.
Hell, if one claims to be a Christian, they are immediately labeled as a "homophobe" ... just like when a person announces they are a conservative, they get immediately labeled a "racist", etc. ad nauseum.
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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2014, 06:37:47 pm »

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 11:24:56 pm by pnpfanatic » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2014, 06:38:59 pm »

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 11:25:14 pm by pnpfanatic » Report Spam   Logged
Robin Hoodlum
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2014, 06:40:00 pm »

I'm a Christian.
So, like many other places, I will be made fun of here, ridiculed, mocked, and insulted.
*shrug*
But my religion has nothing to do with my love for wargaming and military history.

No, I don't think you will. But you prove my point about people picking out the parts they like and leaving the rest tucked away in the Bible. I mean when was the last time you stoned someone to death? There's lots of reasons to do that clearly stated in the Bible but I have a feeling you haven't done that.


But there are those who will. And then their fellow Christians will deny that's what being a Christian is all about.

You can't have it both ways...
See what I mean?
I can't even announce my religion without someone coming in and mocking / ridiculing it and telling me it's badwrong.
And they pick parts of the Old Testament to make fun of, clearly not knowing that the New testament changed some of the things in the Old.
Wow.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 06:42:20 pm by Robin Hoodlum » Report Spam   Logged

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weateallthepies
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2014, 06:40:36 pm »

I'm a Christian.
So, like many other places, I will be made fun of here, ridiculed, mocked, and insulted.



It's a strange phenomena. The majority in the US ARE Christian (though maybe not too devout?).
Yet, on the web and in academia, it almost has to be hidden - whereas it is nearly impossible to
be elected to statewide office anywhere as an atheist.

Which side feels more threatened by the other? And WHY?

I think the theist has a stronger reaction to criticism of their beliefs because religion is so tied up with who a person is. It's so much a part of their everyday life, or at least that is how I understand it. I can't think of many things that would upset me as an atheist (going to stick with that as shorthand for now at least). I've been told I'm going to hell....which obviously isn't a concern of mine. I've been told I have no morals which I've always found amusing more than anything. Non belief is a lot harder to ridicule.
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Robin Hoodlum
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2014, 06:41:13 pm »

It's a strange phenomena. The majority in the US ARE Christian (though maybe not too devout?).
I am a Christian, but I suck at it. Tongue


Which side feels more threatened by the other? And WHY?
A good question.
But I see Christianity (and Christians in particular) being attacked/ mocked/ ridiculed everywhere. Not Islam or Confucianism or not Sikhs or Buddhists... just the Christians. People are afraid to announce their Christianity because they fear being mocked/ ridiculed/ discriminated against because of it.
Hell, if one claims to be a Christian, they are immediately labeled as a "homophobe" ... just like when a person announces they are a conservative, they get immediately labeled a "racist", etc. ad nauseum.

You live under a rock.
Fuck you.
You're an asshole.

How you like me now?
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pnpfanatic
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2014, 06:48:33 pm »

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 11:25:39 pm by pnpfanatic » Report Spam   Logged
weateallthepies
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2014, 06:50:53 pm »

It's a strange phenomena. The majority in the US ARE Christian (though maybe not too devout?).
I am a Christian, but I suck at it. Tongue


Which side feels more threatened by the other? And WHY?
A good question.
But I see Christianity (and Christians in particular) being attacked/ mocked/ ridiculed everywhere. Not Islam or Confucianism or not Sikhs or Buddhists... just the Christians. People are afraid to announce their Christianity because they fear being mocked/ ridiculed/ discriminated against because of it.
Hell, if one claims to be a Christian, they are immediately labeled as a "homophobe" ... just like when a person announces they are a conservative, they get immediately labeled a "racist", etc. ad nauseum.

I don't know, in the uk at least there certainly seems to be more attacking of Islam for one, and more privilege afforded to any religion over any kind of non belief. Of course I can't speak for other countries. Are there not large parts of the US where atheism is a dirty word also?
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