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usrlocal
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« Reply #225 on: July 26, 2014, 04:44:53 pm »

The sad thing is that populist politics are on the rise and ruining lots of respectable social institutions. I think the Internet is partially to blame for that since it enables self-amplifying echo chambers with absolutely zero opportunity for actual dialogue. In fact, dialogue is replaced with demonization of the 'other' - whoever that may be.
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« Reply #226 on: July 26, 2014, 04:57:52 pm »

I'm really sick of those DEMONS.
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« Reply #227 on: July 26, 2014, 05:01:07 pm »

The sad thing is that populist politics are on the rise and ruining lots of respectable social institutions. I think the Internet is partially to blame for that since it enables self-amplifying echo chambers with absolutely zero opportunity for actual dialogue. In fact, dialogue is replaced with demonization of the 'other' - whoever that may be.

I don't know about canukistan, but in the States schoolchildren are indoctrinated with the idea that democracy is a desirable end in and of itself. People cannot fathom why we don't select the president based on a national popular election.

What's worse, as you allude to, is that people are using populism to dictate behavior beyond even governmental institutions--hold an unpopular view and we will shame someone with the power over you to take your property and prevent you from your livelihood. (See Donald sterling or the Duck Dynasty patriarch)
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« Reply #228 on: July 26, 2014, 05:03:04 pm »

The sad thing is that populist politics are on the rise and ruining lots of respectable social institutions. I think the Internet is partially to blame for that since it enables self-amplifying echo chambers with absolutely zero opportunity for actual dialogue. In fact, dialogue is replaced with demonization of the 'other' - whoever that may be.

I don't know about canukistan, but in the States schoolchildren are indoctrinated with the idea that democracy is a desirable end in and of itself. People cannot fathom why we don't select the president based on a national popular election.

What's worse, as you allude to, is that people are using populism to dictate behavior beyond even governmental institutions--hold an unpopular view and we will shame someone with the power over you to take your property and prevent you from your livelihood. (See Donald sterling or the Duck Dynasty patriarch)

Two words: 'Ford Nation'. 

Give me technocratic elitism any day of the week.

Grin
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« Reply #229 on: July 26, 2014, 05:03:27 pm »

Yeah. I wanted to focus more on the beliefs than the name-calling.

For example, the philosophical underpinning to indulgences is very sensible.
The end results caused some serious problems through history though.
BUT, some of the philosophical stances taken to avoid such (good works
not being considered of value) are also very disturbing.

See, you wanted to talk theology and you started a religion thread Smiley

I went through and cleaned up my mess. As I have said wrong person wrong day. Push my buttons on a really bad day and it can go nuclear really fast.

I referred back to my original post and will stand by it. Any organization that is not elected by the people but has the power to control my life or aspects of my life I am against 100%.

But an organization elected by the people that has the power to control your life is okay? Huh

You know, like a government. It's why Democracy doesn't work in the middle-east. They all believe it should be their way and their way only with no compromise. It's getting bad in the states but we haven't broke out in a shooting war...yet.

When a group comes together and breaks the law in front of law enforcement and law enforcement tells you there is nothing they can do but if you lift a hand to those breaking the law YOU will be arrested...that is bullshit...

It's all right here:

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730
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« Reply #230 on: July 26, 2014, 05:07:27 pm »



What's worse, as you allude to, is that people are using populism to dictate behavior beyond even governmental institutions--hold an unpopular view and we will shame someone with the power over you to take your property and prevent you from your livelihood. (See Donald sterling or the Duck Dynasty patriarch)

Now these are strange (and different) cases. For DD, the worry was popular behavior in the market.
That seemed to resolve itself just fine in the end - the people who enjoyed the show didn't give a ****.

With Sterling, the REAL problem is that you have a monopolistic (and state subsidized) industry which could impose
unreasonable demands on someone. You also have employees in a particularly strange labor agreement,
with less rights than almost any workers have in a supposedly free country - who would probably have
largely all simply quit without that special structure. That structure actually PRESERVED Mr. Sterling's
investment - which would have been worth a great deal less than he got, had popular market forces
been allowed unfettered.
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rstites25
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« Reply #231 on: July 26, 2014, 05:19:32 pm »


But an organization elected by the people that has the power to control your life is okay? Huh

You know, like a government. It's why Democracy doesn't work in the middle-east. They all believe it should be their way and their way only with no compromise. It's getting bad in the states but we haven't broke out in a shooting war...yet.

When a group comes together and breaks the law in front of law enforcement and law enforcement tells you there is nothing they can do but if you lift a hand to those breaking the law YOU will be arrested...that is bullshit...

It's all right here:

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730

There are many forms of government. My point is that a non-democratically elected body telling you what you can and cannot do is no different than a democratically elected body doing the same thing. It's a distinction without difference for the most part.

As far as your anecdote, I'm not sure how much of it I believe. Yes, you would have been arrested for battery had you physically removed someone from your store for something a person said. There's nothing surprising about that. If they were in your store bothering customers you generally should have been able to ask them to leave your private property for disturbing your customers. If I had to guess, I'd say the people causing the problems had left by the time the cops showed up, and that's why there was nothing to be done. Or the people were not in the store, but standing on the sidewalk, i.e. A public forum.

In any event the entire event seems rather dubious.
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« Reply #232 on: July 26, 2014, 05:36:18 pm »


But an organization elected by the people that has the power to control your life is okay? Huh

You know, like a government. It's why Democracy doesn't work in the middle-east. They all believe it should be their way and their way only with no compromise. It's getting bad in the states but we haven't broke out in a shooting war...yet.

When a group comes together and breaks the law in front of law enforcement and law enforcement tells you there is nothing they can do but if you lift a hand to those breaking the law YOU will be arrested...that is bullshit...

It's all right here:

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730

There are many forms of government. My point is that a non-democratically elected body telling you what you can and cannot do is no different than a democratically elected body doing the same thing. It's a distinction without difference for the most part.

As far as your anecdote, I'm not sure how much of it I believe. Yes, you would have been arrested for battery had you physically removed someone from your store for something a person said. There's nothing surprising about that. If they were in your store bothering customers you generally should have been able to ask them to leave your private property for disturbing your customers. If I had to guess, I'd say the people causing the problems had left by the time the cops showed up, and that's why there was nothing to be done. Or the people were not in the store, but standing on the sidewalk, i.e. A public forum.

In any event the entire event seems rather dubious.


Do you think I would feel the way I do if it didn't go down the way I said?

In the store. Everyday. Preaching to customers. Told them to leave. They just got louder. Cops called. Show up. People in store still being disruptive on private property. Tells me nothing he can do. I go behind counter for my baseball bat and I am told if I touch them I will be arrested.

Exactly how it went down. Just like my business. This isn't church man. You don't have to 'believe' anything. I was there. Satanic Panic. Every store in the area closed. Schools confiscating books from kids. Book burnings. Not just RPGs. Magazines removed from stores. Music being destroyed.

Moral Majority - Pure unadulterated Facism.

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« Reply #233 on: July 26, 2014, 05:36:58 pm »



What's worse, as you allude to, is that people are using populism to dictate behavior beyond even governmental institutions--hold an unpopular view and we will shame someone with the power over you to take your property and prevent you from your livelihood. (See Donald sterling or the Duck Dynasty patriarch)

Now these are strange (and different) cases. For DD, the worry was popular behavior in the market.
That seemed to resolve itself just fine in the end - the people who enjoyed the show didn't give a ****.

With Sterling, the REAL problem is that you have a monopolistic (and state subsidized) industry which could impose
unreasonable demands on someone. You also have employees in a particularly strange labor agreement,
with less rights than almost any workers have in a supposedly free country - who would probably have
largely all simply quit without that special structure. That structure actually PRESERVED Mr. Sterling's
investment - which would have been worth a great deal less than he got, had popular market forces
been allowed unfettered.

NBA players have bargained away any rights they have lost in exchange for other benefits. In reality, unions give their constituents more rights than they would otherwise have because the law allows them to monopolize labor. But the problem isn't that he didn't get market value, it's that he was forced to sell against his will.

DD may have worked itself out in the end, but that doesn't change the fact that the populace was leveraging its power against beliefs it disagreed with. Because of the amplification of social media, it doesn't have to even be a majority. The same thing has happened with CEOs and others who have merely given political support to certain groups.

It's very dangerous when the populace uses the power of the majority (or vocal minority) to suppress ideas or beliefs. It is one thing to boycott a company/person because of its actions; quite another to do so because of its beliefs.
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rstites25
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« Reply #234 on: July 26, 2014, 05:40:11 pm »


But an organization elected by the people that has the power to control your life is okay? Huh

You know, like a government. It's why Democracy doesn't work in the middle-east. They all believe it should be their way and their way only with no compromise. It's getting bad in the states but we haven't broke out in a shooting war...yet.

When a group comes together and breaks the law in front of law enforcement and law enforcement tells you there is nothing they can do but if you lift a hand to those breaking the law YOU will be arrested...that is bullshit...

It's all right here:

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730

There are many forms of government. My point is that a non-democratically elected body telling you what you can and cannot do is no different than a democratically elected body doing the same thing. It's a distinction without difference for the most part.

As far as your anecdote, I'm not sure how much of it I believe. Yes, you would have been arrested for battery had you physically removed someone from your store for something a person said. There's nothing surprising about that. If they were in your store bothering customers you generally should have been able to ask them to leave your private property for disturbing your customers. If I had to guess, I'd say the people causing the problems had left by the time the cops showed up, and that's why there was nothing to be done. Or the people were not in the store, but standing on the sidewalk, i.e. A public forum.

In any event the entire event seems rather dubious.


Do you think I would feel the way I do if it didn't go down the way I said?

In the store. Everyday. Preaching to customers. Told them to leave. They just got louder. Cops called. Show up. People in store still being disruptive on private property. Tells me nothing he can do. I go behind counter for my baseball bat and I am told if I touch them I will be arrested.

Exactly how it went down. Just like my business. This isn't church man. You don't have to 'believe' anything. I was there. Satanic Panic. Every store in the area closed. Schools confiscating books from kids. Book burnings. Not just RPGs. Magazines removed from stores. Music being destroyed.

Moral Majority - Pure unadulterated Facism.



But if the moral majority duly enacted the laws, it's okay right? That was your problem above, that it was an unelected body doing it. Once the moral majority takes over the political bodies of the state, and uses those institutions, seems like all is good under your post above.
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« Reply #235 on: July 26, 2014, 05:46:46 pm »



NBA players have bargained away any rights they have lost in exchange for other benefits.

Legally, yes. But the whole structure is interfering with a free market approach. The collective bargaining
is as much a 'problem' as is the monopoly of the owners association.

Quote
But the problem isn't that he didn't get market value, it's that he was forced to sell against his will.

I disagree. He did not receive as great a penalty as the consumers of his product thought.
If he was running a free market corporation, he would have been forced out just the same -
but wouldn't have been able to command the full market value.

Quote
DD may have worked itself out in the end, but that doesn't change the fact that the populace was leveraging its power against beliefs it disagreed with.

Bull. That was their employer, A&E either leveraging their own fear of the populace, OR their own morality.
Either way though, I totally think that boycott actions are a perfectly reasonable way of treating something
like this. It's a step better than throwing the tea into the harbor and all.



Quote
It's very dangerous when the populace uses the power of the majority (or vocal minority) to suppress ideas or beliefs. It is one thing to boycott a company/person because of its actions; quite another to do so because of its beliefs.

Money and speech have become so intertwined, that there is no other way to deal with this,
especially when it comes to the large media stage. The PRODUCT that A&E is selling is an
idea in and of itself.
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« Reply #236 on: July 26, 2014, 05:55:34 pm »


But an organization elected by the people that has the power to control your life is okay? Huh

You know, like a government. It's why Democracy doesn't work in the middle-east. They all believe it should be their way and their way only with no compromise. It's getting bad in the states but we haven't broke out in a shooting war...yet.

When a group comes together and breaks the law in front of law enforcement and law enforcement tells you there is nothing they can do but if you lift a hand to those breaking the law YOU will be arrested...that is bullshit...

It's all right here:

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730

There are many forms of government. My point is that a non-democratically elected body telling you what you can and cannot do is no different than a democratically elected body doing the same thing. It's a distinction without difference for the most part.

As far as your anecdote, I'm not sure how much of it I believe. Yes, you would have been arrested for battery had you physically removed someone from your store for something a person said. There's nothing surprising about that. If they were in your store bothering customers you generally should have been able to ask them to leave your private property for disturbing your customers. If I had to guess, I'd say the people causing the problems had left by the time the cops showed up, and that's why there was nothing to be done. Or the people were not in the store, but standing on the sidewalk, i.e. A public forum.

In any event the entire event seems rather dubious.


Do you think I would feel the way I do if it didn't go down the way I said?

In the store. Everyday. Preaching to customers. Told them to leave. They just got louder. Cops called. Show up. People in store still being disruptive on private property. Tells me nothing he can do. I go behind counter for my baseball bat and I am told if I touch them I will be arrested.

Exactly how it went down. Just like my business. This isn't church man. You don't have to 'believe' anything. I was there. Satanic Panic. Every store in the area closed. Schools confiscating books from kids. Book burnings. Not just RPGs. Magazines removed from stores. Music being destroyed.

Moral Majority - Pure unadulterated Facism.



But if the moral majority duly enacted the laws, it's okay right? That was your problem above, that it was an unelected body doing it. Once the moral majority takes over the political bodies of the state, and uses those institutions, seems like all is good under your post above.

No, it's not ok. But you have the option of organizing to bring that elected group down or going to civil war.

I'm talking about people who operate beyond the law, protected by the institutions that are put in place to stop just such actions.

Cops - can't help you

Lawyers - take your money and then tell you nothing there's they can do.

You tell me. Here's the situation. What do you do?:

You are watching your favorite sporting event on your bigscreen having a cold beer and a slice of pizza when a knock comes at the door. I say 'hey, what's up' and push past you and head for the kitchen where I grab a cold beer out of the fridge, head over to the sofa and grab a slice of pizza, change the channel to my favorite sport and put my muddy shoes up on your coffee table.

You call the cops, They show up, hear what happened and inform you there is nothing they can do about it and when you move towards me they tell you that if you touch me you will go to jail.

What do you do?
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« Reply #237 on: July 26, 2014, 05:56:33 pm »

The ultimate problem is that the actions of the boycotters has a cooling effect on speech. Instead of both sides presenting their ideas, one side is doing everything in their power to silence an opposing view.

With respect to money/speech. The problem isn't the money necessary to buy "speech," but that the political checks and balances intended to prevent any politician from having sufficient power that anyone would actually want to pay for that power, have been eroded.
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« Reply #238 on: July 26, 2014, 05:59:52 pm »


But an organization elected by the people that has the power to control your life is okay? Huh

You know, like a government. It's why Democracy doesn't work in the middle-east. They all believe it should be their way and their way only with no compromise. It's getting bad in the states but we haven't broke out in a shooting war...yet.

When a group comes together and breaks the law in front of law enforcement and law enforcement tells you there is nothing they can do but if you lift a hand to those breaking the law YOU will be arrested...that is bullshit...

It's all right here:

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730

There are many forms of government. My point is that a non-democratically elected body telling you what you can and cannot do is no different than a democratically elected body doing the same thing. It's a distinction without difference for the most part.

As far as your anecdote, I'm not sure how much of it I believe. Yes, you would have been arrested for battery had you physically removed someone from your store for something a person said. There's nothing surprising about that. If they were in your store bothering customers you generally should have been able to ask them to leave your private property for disturbing your customers. If I had to guess, I'd say the people causing the problems had left by the time the cops showed up, and that's why there was nothing to be done. Or the people were not in the store, but standing on the sidewalk, i.e. A public forum.

In any event the entire event seems rather dubious.


Do you think I would feel the way I do if it didn't go down the way I said?

In the store. Everyday. Preaching to customers. Told them to leave. They just got louder. Cops called. Show up. People in store still being disruptive on private property. Tells me nothing he can do. I go behind counter for my baseball bat and I am told if I touch them I will be arrested.

Exactly how it went down. Just like my business. This isn't church man. You don't have to 'believe' anything. I was there. Satanic Panic. Every store in the area closed. Schools confiscating books from kids. Book burnings. Not just RPGs. Magazines removed from stores. Music being destroyed.

Moral Majority - Pure unadulterated Facism.



But if the moral majority duly enacted the laws, it's okay right? That was your problem above, that it was an unelected body doing it. Once the moral majority takes over the political bodies of the state, and uses those institutions, seems like all is good under your post above.

No, it's not ok. But you have the option of organizing to bring that elected group down or going to civil war.

I'm talking about people who operate beyond the law, protected by the institutions that are put in place to stop just such actions.

Cops - can't help you

Lawyers - take your money and then tell you nothing there's they can do.

You tell me. Here's the situation. What do you do?:

You are watching your favorite sporting event on your bigscreen having a cold beer and a slice of pizza when a knock comes at the door. I say 'hey, what's up' and push past you and head for the kitchen where I grab a cold beer out of the fridge, head over to the sofa and grab a slice of pizza, change the channel to my favorite sport and put my muddy shoes up on your coffee table.

You call the cops, They show up, hear what happened and inform you there is nothing they can do about it and when you move towards me they tell you that if you touch me you will go to jail.

What do you do?

The home is different from a public store from a legal standpoint. But you would clearly be trespassing, just as the customers you describe would have been if your scenario was factual.

Your problem is not with the religions, it is with a corrupt executive branch failing to enforce the laws, if true.
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« Reply #239 on: July 26, 2014, 06:03:30 pm »

In the store. Everyday. Preaching to customers. Told them to leave. They just got louder. Cops called. Show up. People in store still being disruptive on private property. Tells me nothing he can do. I go behind counter for my baseball bat and I am told if I touch them I will be arrested.

I just don't understand how that could have happened, because as soon as you asked them to leave, they were clearly trespassing. The cops should have removed them from your premises. I don't excuse that group's behavior (and it was reprehensible for disrupting your business), but the blame falls squarely on the cops on this one.

Did you make a complaint at the local police station?
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Meh.
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