Religion

[Calandale]

So, religious issues have come up in a couple of threads, and I thought it wold be
nice to have one to discuss them head-on. Not to get into stone throwing, but
a place to enter and discuss what you believe, so we all have more context in
such matters.

I'm largely agnostic. Agnostic in the sense that many atheists try to abscond with -
I see absolutely no reason to believe that there is a god or gods, but I also see no
reason to believe that there isn't. Outspoken atheists tend to point to the ridiculousness of
religion in general, and its bad effects. I like to look at its causes. In this, I
probably come closest to following Marvin Harris' cultural materialism.

On the other hand, I am fairly spiritual. I hold beliefs that logic tells me are incongruous
with reality. Magical thinking, if you will. There's a driving need in me for things to not be
as they appear - making me an insignificant part of an insignificant infestation on a backwater
planet circling a rather ordinary star among billions in just one of many galaxies in what may
be one of many universes. I ain't that humble. Of course, unlike most religions, my spirituality
does not have to serve others - so instead of making humanity important and special, I simply
cut to the chase and decide that I am.  Better mileage per gallon of faith.

[weateallthepies]

I am and have been an atheist for most of my life and I'm probably closest to a humanist where any sort of philosophy is concerned.

I kind of get your point on agnosticism but I can't simply say I have no reason to believe there isn't a god. If I go down that path then I have no reason to believe there isn't anything anyone cares to tell me they believe in that cannot be proven. I guess it's the science background, but my reasoning is generally along the lines of there being no evidence for the existence of a god or gods that the likelihood of their existence is so small that it can safely be ignored along with lots of other things unless new evidence appears.

The atheism/agnosticism thing seems much more of a sliding scale than a distinct separation of ideas.

[pnpfanatic]

Organized religion is the cause of 90% of the problems on this planet.

Personally Christianity was burnt with me when, in the mid 80's, I ran a game shop and they kept coming in telling my customers and their kids they were going to Hell for playing Dungeons & Dragons.

When I called the police to remove them from my property I was told there was nothing they could do, but if I lifted a hand to remove them that I would go to JAIL.

I lost my business, had to sell my game collection to pay off debts and went to work in a crap economy for $5 an hour to pay off the rest.

From that day on the live and let live doctrine I had practiced went out the window.

And the ultimate hypocrisy and payback? I lived in a state where you couldn't buy alcohol on Sunday because of religion. So a friend figured out how to get Sunday beer without driving to another state. He made a map of the surrounding area and of all the churches that had a cold water stream running behind them. He started watching and after church several guys would hang around and then go behind the church and pull cold 6-packs of beer out of the water that were held there by fish stringers.

So one Sunday we all went for a ride and sure enough we came up with a case of nice cold beer floating in the water. We relived them of their sin and sat in a stand of trees up from the church enjoying the cold refreshing beverage while guys ran along the stream clearing screaming 'God damnit!'.


I am against ALL organized religions, Christian or otherwise, because on an individual basis one can say what they want and believe what they want. But when these people gather into these organizations and infringe on my rights that is where the line is drawn.

[LuckyDiceRolls]

how anyone could still believe in the fairy tales like those in the bible, now, in this time when science can explain literally every aspect of life and our lives, is utterly beyond me

granted, religion may be a useful 'crutch' for those who are weak in mind and body, but sooner or later those crutches better come off!

[Calandale]

I kind of get your point on agnosticism but I can't simply say I have no reason to believe there isn't a god. If I go down that path then I have no reason to believe there isn't anything anyone cares to tell me they believe in that cannot be proven.

Yeah. I'm pretty much a complete skeptic. I see the basic survival assumptions
(causality for example) as matters of faith, so I'm coming from a pretty extreme
point of view.

The atheism/agnosticism thing seems much more of a sliding scale than a distinct separation of ideas.

Not for me. I've always seen the atheist attempt to suborn what agnosticism actually is defined as
as somewhat dishonest. Too often it feels that the atheist is straddling the fence: claiming that obviously
one cannot KNOW that there is no supernatural behind it all, but at the same time regularly mocking any
belief that there is. I wouldn't want to be associated with that kind of behavior.

[Calandale]

Organized religion is the cause of 90% of the problems on this planet.

No, it's not. Human nature is the root cause here. Religion, like other institutions,
just serves the needs of that nature.

[kira1y]

My mom tried to raise me as a Roman Catholic. It didn't work. 

Like most things in life I'm kind of indifferent to the whole "do gods exist" thing. I really don't think there is anyone out there but I really just don't care. I'm non-spiritual and non-religious, both of which are CLMs where I work, so I'm obviously not too vocal about it.

[weateallthepies]

Yeah. I'm pretty much a complete skeptic. I see the basic survival assumptions
(causality for example) as matters of faith, so I'm coming from a pretty extreme
point of view.

I get closer to that when my anxiety kicks in, not sure I like it though.

Not for me. I've always seen the atheist attempt to suborn what agnosticism actually is defined as
as somewhat dishonest. Too often it feels that the atheist is straddling the fence: claiming that obviously
one cannot KNOW that there is no supernatural behind it all, but at the same time regularly mocking any
belief that there is. I wouldn't want to be associated with that kind of behavior.

I think it's more because of the way people use the labels to describe themselves, rather than the strict definitions. It's a confusing subject once I start thinking about it, once you start poking at the term atheism does it even make sense?

People tell me atheism means I believe there is no God, which by definition isn't true, atheism is my lack of belief in god which is a different thing. However once I've started thinking about it, is it a lack of belief? Can I actually have a lack of belief about something I am consciously thinking about or do I deep down just believe it isn't true?

I guess I could start using the term agnostic atheist but then I'd have to explain even more when someone asks me.

[stemcider]

"I used to be an atheist, until I realized I had nothing to shout during blowjobs. "Oh Random Chance! Oh Random Chance!" just doesn't cut it…."

- Robert Anton Wilson, DragonCon, 2000
(This quote is knowingly or otherwise lifted from Bill Hicks' comedy routine, or vice versa.)

[Calandale]

Yeah. I'm pretty much a complete skeptic. I see the basic survival assumptions
(causality for example) as matters of faith, so I'm coming from a pretty extreme
point of view.

I get closer to that when my anxiety kicks in, not sure I like it though.

My common existence is not easy. Driving thought away is the only means of survival.
Gaming does that. So does drinking. Or spamming.

People tell me atheism means I believe there is no God, which by definition isn't true, atheism is my lack of belief in god which is a different thing.

So, how is that any different from agnosticism? And what do we call those people, who self-identify as atheists,
but truly just seem to believe that there is no god? Oh, they may put some cover that "of course we can't know,"
but then proceed to attack the very idea as absurd. Reality itself is absurd - thus Tertullian's misappropriation.

However once I've started thinking about it, is it a lack of belief? Can I actually have a lack of belief about something I am consciously thinking about or do I deep down just believe it isn't true?

You've hit on it here. Belief is belief. You can 'not believe' in the sense of having no real opinion
on the matter. Science as a whole does not believe in god; it is agnostic - makes no statements
which can help to answer the question. But, once you have an opinion on the likelihood, you are
entering the realm of faith. Once you start thinking that it is actually HARD to believe, you are
actively disbelieving.

I guess I could start using the term agnostic atheist but then I'd have to explain even more when someone asks me.

Whereas EVERYONE seems to know what agnostic means. The water has only been muddied
by modern atheists, realizing the stronger version of their credo is essentially indefensible,
have squatted into agnosticism - but still are often as rigidly dogmatic as the older version.
They try and hide their faith, because that too seems ridiculous.

Thing is, humans NEED faith. Living without it, in pure skepticism, puts you where I am,
which is not at all a pleasant place.

[stemcider]

I am a big fan of creation stories (not to be confused with Creationism), and I feel that ancient allegorical and metaphorical stories often hold more truth than their modern day scientific counterparts.

Turtles all the way down.

[pnpfanatic]

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730

[Calandale]

"I used to be an atheist, until I realized I had nothing to shout during blowjobs. "Oh Random Chance! Oh Random Chance!" just doesn't cut it…."

- Robert Anton Wilson, DragonCon, 2000
(This quote is knowingly or otherwise lifted from Bill Hicks' comedy routine, or vice versa.)

Reminded me of a playboy joke with the punchline "there are no atheists in foxy holes"

[billyboy]

I don't give a rats ass what people believe about religion. Thats there personal decision. However the religion bashing going on here by some is really nasty, rude, and ignorant.

[Calandale]

And understand...this is not about whether God exists or doesn't exist. Such a creature would be so far beyond our comprehension as to prove impossible to understand.

I'm beyond my comprehension and prove impossible to understand.

This is about organized religions who claim to speak for God and kill each other and the innocents caught in the crossfire about whose fake god is better.

But people, being social things, tend to organize everything.

Cultural materialism boils the need for war down to a struggle for survival (similar to natural
selection); the creation of groups willing to fight for expanding and enhancing their cultural
units (including religion) is pretty much baked into what being human means.