The Game Box
January 17, 2022, 06:32:47 pm
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The new site is Running.
This one is closed.


sign up here: http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/
 
  Home Help Search Gallery Links Staff List Login Register  

Religion

Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 17   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Religion  (Read 1900 times)
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #195 on: July 23, 2014, 09:28:18 am »


Incidentally, this is also where I cringe, when detractors say religion was invented just so people can get through their day. Well, in my experience, nothing could be further from the truth.  My life became exponentially more difficult after being saved. I suddenly needed to become a real father for my kids, by dropping my selfish stuff and sacrificing for them. I suddenly needed to become a real husband for my lovely bride, and pick up the slack for so many things I left on her. I work hard to stay graceful and tactful with folks, out in the world and here on the 'webz. I feel bad (not guilty, mind you) for trashing others... Jesus saved me, the worst guy I know, so how can I attack someone on an Internet forum in hate? I have been made a stronger person, no question... but not to BE saved, but BECAUSE I have been saved.


So, you're missing a piece. It's so they can get through their day in a manner that benefits society.
It gives reason to do what is necessary for a culture to survive. Religion is not one man's crutch,
but a tool (like any organization) for harnessing the individual into something greater.

People can sit around drinking booze all day - but a society based upon that will inevitably fail.
Institutions, like organized religions, are the tools by which society is able to progress. They can
be viewed as a part of a social survival of the fittest.
Report Spam   Logged
Rockhopper
Kevin
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 104



View Profile
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2014, 10:06:01 am »


So, you're missing a piece. It's so they can get through their day in a manner that benefits society.
It gives reason to do what is necessary for a culture to survive. Religion is not one man's crutch,
but a tool (like any organization) for harnessing the individual into something greater.

People can sit around drinking booze all day - but a society based upon that will inevitably fail.
Institutions, like organized religions, are the tools by which society is able to progress. They can
be viewed as a part of a social survival of the fittest.

I don't think people care about society. I think that the natural condition of man is to be self-centered, "how can I make my life as comfortable as possible." Even if there is some sort of view to better society, its more often because a good society benefits "me." That is still man-centered.

Report Spam   Logged
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2014, 10:25:44 am »


So, you're missing a piece. It's so they can get through their day in a manner that benefits society.
It gives reason to do what is necessary for a culture to survive. Religion is not one man's crutch,
but a tool (like any organization) for harnessing the individual into something greater.

People can sit around drinking booze all day - but a society based upon that will inevitably fail.
Institutions, like organized religions, are the tools by which society is able to progress. They can
be viewed as a part of a social survival of the fittest.

I don't think people care about society. I think that the natural condition of man is to be self-centered, "how can I make my life as comfortable as possible." Even if there is some sort of view to better society, its more often because a good society benefits "me." That is still man-centered.



Remember, I'm a cultural materialist. PEOPLE don't need to think they're doing well by society - any more than propagation
of the species is a particular desire needed for reproduction. It's that reward systems and morals are formed which inevitably
promote the overall strength of society. Why inevitable? Same reason as natural selection - the ones which are ineffective
cause their society to die out, change, or be absorbed.

This says absolutely nothing about the spiritual side of things though. Individual need for spirituality may
or may not be related to the growth of institutions.

But the CM-view can be used to show that religions have had an important place in
promoting overall cultures (as has war, btw) throughout history. Needs may have changed
though, with the coming of weapons capable of destroying all societies.
Report Spam   Logged
Rockhopper
Kevin
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 104



View Profile
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #198 on: July 23, 2014, 11:27:44 am »


So, you're missing a piece. It's so they can get through their day in a manner that benefits society.
It gives reason to do what is necessary for a culture to survive. Religion is not one man's crutch,
but a tool (like any organization) for harnessing the individual into something greater.

People can sit around drinking booze all day - but a society based upon that will inevitably fail.
Institutions, like organized religions, are the tools by which society is able to progress. They can
be viewed as a part of a social survival of the fittest.

I don't think people care about society. I think that the natural condition of man is to be self-centered, "how can I make my life as comfortable as possible." Even if there is some sort of view to better society, its more often because a good society benefits "me." That is still man-centered.



Remember, I'm a cultural materialist. PEOPLE don't need to think they're doing well by society - any more than propagation
of the species is a particular desire needed for reproduction. It's that reward systems and morals are formed which inevitably
promote the overall strength of society. Why inevitable? Same reason as natural selection - the ones which are ineffective
cause their society to die out, change, or be absorbed.

This says absolutely nothing about the spiritual side of things though. Individual need for spirituality may
or may not be related to the growth of institutions.

But the CM-view can be used to show that religions have had an important place in
promoting overall cultures (as has war, btw) throughout history. Needs may have changed
though, with the coming of weapons capable of destroying all societies.

OK we might have to slow down a bit, because I'm not sure what we're discussing exactly. I jumped over a lot and just tried to engage with folks that were chatting with me. I'm a dumb Marine, and might've missed your position... oh heck, I might not even know what the question is.  Grin

Report Spam   Logged
weateallthepies
Forum Curious
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 49


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #199 on: July 23, 2014, 11:33:54 am »

Yo bro!

'sup!

Quote
No, I will not be punished for my sins. Jesus was punished for my sins. God will let you off because he was satisfied with the payment. Why is trusting in Jesus enough? I don't know, but it's reasonable for a sovereign God to deem what he will accept, and that's where he's placed the bar. He expects perfection, and provided a way for imperfect people to be counted as perfect.

What is it was on your deathbed though? Is God going to forgive someone who realises at the very last moment in their life that they have led a "bad" life?

Quote
Analogies are tough, because they're often just a pale shadow of the reality they're trying to portray. So I know its subject to be filled full of holes, but here is an analogy. Its like I got a speeding ticket. You can go to court and tell the judge you're sorry, but if he is a good judge (that is, strictly by the book doing his job) then he's going to say "OK, yeah, you're sorry, but the fine has to be settled." Now when you go to the clerk to pay, they don't care where the money comes from... they just want the fine paid. So imagine Jesus striding in, "I'll take that bill" and he throws down the cash. The government is satisfied, and you're credited as an Outstanding Citizen. Again, you can extend the analogy (Jesus won't go to traffic school if you're sent there), so I know there are holes, but like our wargames, its an abstracted picture.

Yeah I still struggle with this idea, doesn't it pretty much allow for any behaviour since Jesus died for those sins. Can't you just behave how you want and accept Jesus once you've "had your fun"?

Quote
And just making yourself better... no, not really going to help. Because my prior life as a rebel against him is still counted against me without someone who was perfect that can stand in for me. Not to mention, that even when we strive to be better, we're really not, let's be honest. We might stop obvious stuff like shoplifting, but continue to steal from work by fudging a timesheet or eeking out a few extra minutes for lunch. 


Yes sorry I meant "feel better about yourself". Isn't it to some extent self serving? You've done bad so in order to feel better about it you can use religion to wash away those bad thoughts. Isn't that a bit disengeuous?

Quote
Incidentally, this is also where I cringe, when detractors say religion was invented just so people can get through their day. Well, in my experience, nothing could be further from the truth.  My life became exponentially more difficult after being saved. I suddenly needed to become a real father for my kids, by dropping my selfish stuff and sacrificing for them. I suddenly needed to become a real husband for my lovely bride, and pick up the slack for so many things I left on her. I work hard to stay graceful and tactful with folks, out in the world and here on the 'webz. I feel bad (not guilty, mind you) for trashing others... Jesus saved me, the worst guy I know, so how can I attack someone on an Internet forum in hate? I have been made a stronger person, no question... but not to BE saved, but BECAUSE I have been saved.

I'm glad that religion has given you that, I'm actually quite envious of the feelings that people describe about religion and the peace it brings to their lives. I still can't manage it myself, religion always seems self serving to me, people behave in a moral way because they fear punishment rather than behaving morally becuase they they think it's the right thing to do. Sure atheism can be seen as self serving, after all you are beholden unto yourself, but I see an honesty in that, my actions are my own. I think morality is a construct of society and I remain within that framework because I like being a part of society.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to answer. I really am fascinated by the subject, even though we are probably as far apart in regards to our belief as it is possible to get.
Report Spam   Logged
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #200 on: July 23, 2014, 11:34:57 am »

Dunno that there IS a question. Just stating my belief about the underlying
role of religion (as opposed to spirituality), within a framework of social
institutions. It's something of a take on the 'opiate of the masses' side
of things - but the reality is that societies need institutions to survive,
and those institutions, AND the thinking which drive them, are geared
(by virtue of what DOES survive) toward the success of the society on
a competitive stage.


As to spirituality, it is bound up in religious beliefs. The institutionalized
religions help promote and indoctrinate thinking which goes hand in hand
with the societal role that religions play. But, there is something in spiritual
thinking which often seems more decisive in directing the thoughts of humans.
Not always - sometimes nationalism or other institutional ideals are more pervasive.
Nowadays, in the West, it seems celebrity and wealth may be greater driving forces -
which of course will be on a beeline for conflict with religious institutions based upon
humility and self-denial. Of course, Protestantism is in part to blame (or more ready
wealth for Protestantism) in pushing the glorification of earned wealth - it is a sign
(though no sure one) of having been saved under Calvinist principles, for example;
God helps those who help themselves and all.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 11:41:00 am by Calandale » Report Spam   Logged
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #201 on: July 23, 2014, 11:43:20 am »

... religion always seems self serving to me, people behave in a moral way because they fear punishment rather than behaving morally becuase they they think it's the right thing to do. Sure atheism can be seen as self serving, after all you are beholden unto yourself, but I see an honesty in that, my actions are my own. I think morality is a construct of society and I remain within that framework because I like being a part of society.




ALL human actions can be seen as purely selfish though. Even the most altruistic good feelings
one gets by helping those in need are at heart something which pleases the doer.
Report Spam   Logged
weateallthepies
Forum Curious
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 49


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #202 on: July 23, 2014, 11:50:34 am »

Dunno that there IS a question. Just stating my belief about the underlying
role of religion (as opposed to spirituality), within a framework of social
institutions. It's something of a take on the 'opiate of the masses' side
of things - but the reality is that societies need institutions to survive,
and those institutions, AND the thinking which drive them, are geared
(by virtue of what DOES survive) toward the success of the society on
a competitive stage.


As to spirituality, it is bound up in religious beliefs. The institutionalized
religions help promote and indoctrinate thinking which goes hand in hand
with the societal role that religions play. But, there is something in spiritual
thinking which often seems more decisive in directing the thoughts of humans.
Not always - sometimes nationalism or other institutional ideals are more pervasive.
Nowadays, in the West, it seems celebrity and wealth may be greater driving forces -
which of course will be on a beeline for conflict with religious institutions based upon
humility and self-denial. Of course, Protestantism is in part to blame (or more ready
wealth for Protestantism) in pushing the glorification of earned wealth - it is a sign
(though no sure one) of having been saved under Calvinist principles, for example;
God helps those who help themselves and all.

Yeah I think I pretty much go along with that. After all humanism which is about as close to an institution as I get is a direct reaction to the institution of religion. An attempt to create something similar without the requirement of spirituality or faith...though some may disagree about the faith required for rational thought.
Report Spam   Logged
pnpfanatic
Now 100% PnP
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 191


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #203 on: July 23, 2014, 11:55:47 am »

http://thegamebox.freesmfhosting.com/index.php/topic,115.msg1730.html#msg1730
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 11:51:52 pm by pnpfanatic » Report Spam   Logged
weateallthepies
Forum Curious
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 49


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #204 on: July 23, 2014, 11:57:20 am »

... religion always seems self serving to me, people behave in a moral way because they fear punishment rather than behaving morally becuase they they think it's the right thing to do. Sure atheism can be seen as self serving, after all you are beholden unto yourself, but I see an honesty in that, my actions are my own. I think morality is a construct of society and I remain within that framework because I like being a part of society.




ALL human actions can be seen as purely selfish though. Even the most altruistic good feelings
one gets by helping those in need are at heart something which pleases the doer.

Cynic!  Grin No I get you, and you are right. There just seems something more false when it comes to religion at least to me. It's that offloading of guilt/blame to someone else. I feel bad for my bad actions and I always will. I don't believe there is any way of "atoning" for them beyond trying to make things better, I did bad things and I will live with that. Religion seems like a handy get out of jail free card.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 12:01:00 pm by weateallthepies » Report Spam   Logged
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #205 on: July 23, 2014, 12:27:53 pm »



Yeah I think I pretty much go along with that. After all humanism which is about as close to an institution as I get is a direct reaction to the institution of religion. An attempt to create something similar without the requirement of spirituality or faith...though some may disagree about the faith required for rational thought.

Nice point! Humanism IS institutional. Within academia, it is an underlying assumption (though not absolute), which is
not too different from the role religion played. Oh, no one gets burned at the stake, but whole ways of thinking
end up dismissed.

No wonder there is an anti-academic current within the religious right.
Report Spam   Logged
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #206 on: July 23, 2014, 12:33:59 pm »

... religion always seems self serving to me, people behave in a moral way because they fear punishment rather than behaving morally becuase they they think it's the right thing to do. Sure atheism can be seen as self serving, after all you are beholden unto yourself, but I see an honesty in that, my actions are my own. I think morality is a construct of society and I remain within that framework because I like being a part of society.




ALL human actions can be seen as purely selfish though. Even the most altruistic good feelings
one gets by helping those in need are at heart something which pleases the doer.

Cynic!  Grin No I get you, and you are right. There just seems something more false when it comes to religion at least to me. It's that offloading of guilt/blame to someone else. I feel bad for my bad actions and I always will. I don't believe there is any way of "atoning" for them beyond trying to make things better, I did bad things and I will live with that. Religion seems like a handy get out of jail free card.

Not all religions are accusatory. Nor do all promise any kind of 'salvation'.

The Church in the West seems to have used that promise of salvation to avoid facing the horrors of
this world (and any need to change - hence destroying /mutating the society). Seldom was it the case
that people directly saw that as the purpose (it seems so grim, that it HAS to remain unnoticed); just
as realpolitik is usually avoided in speeches.

But, the fact that something serves a societal purpose in no way disqualifies the religion from
perhaps being a beacon to some underlying truth. A decision to decide there is no such basis
is as much a matter of faith as that there is.
Report Spam   Logged
weateallthepies
Forum Curious
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 49


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #207 on: July 23, 2014, 12:55:01 pm »

Not all religions are accusatory. Nor do all promise any kind of 'salvation'.

The Church in the West seems to have used that promise of salvation to avoid facing the horrors of
this world (and any need to change - hence destroying /mutating the society). Seldom was it the case
that people directly saw that as the purpose (it seems so grim, that it HAS to remain unnoticed); just
as realpolitik is usually avoided in speeches.

But, the fact that something serves a societal purpose in no way disqualifies the religion from
perhaps being a beacon to some underlying truth. A decision to decide there is no such basis
is as much a matter of faith as that there is.

I did almost put a clause in about Christianity rather than just religion, since it is the most familiar to me at least.

I'd be interested in how other religions deal with the issue. Salvation seems such a fundamental draw for religion. Perhaps I'd find more honesty in a religion that didn't espouse that.
Report Spam   Logged
kira1y
Guest

Badges: (View All)
« Reply #208 on: July 23, 2014, 01:46:02 pm »

There is certainly no ineligibility for atheists to hold public office as there is in the US.

Although it doesn't appear that they are enforced anymore, there are actually eight states that have laws against atheists holding public office.

Sauce
Report Spam   Logged
stemcider
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 105


dafuq


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
« Reply #209 on: July 23, 2014, 01:52:15 pm »

Reposting my question after the poopiestorm:

I'm all for having a serious discussion, but it's tough to respond to the flurry.

I've been a Christian since August 2010. I was not a good person. I'm a liar. I'm a thief. I disrespected my parents. I was an adulterer and a fornicator. I never kept God in importance. As a matter of fact, I lived my whole previous 38 years constructing one idol after another. I worshipped myself. I worshipped money. I worshipped comfort. I worshipped the admiration of other people. I continually blasphemed the name of God who was kind enough to provide air to breathe. Anyone who claims to be free of these is just adding one more lie.

I realized that my life could be snuffed out in a heartbeat, just like it did for many friends of mine, and family I loved. If I faced God with all those things on my account, I'd be in trouble, and certainly hell bound.

Just like ourselves, God doesn't dig people breaking his laws. And just as we have a strong sense of justice, so does God. Those iniquities are worthy of punishment. You can't just say sorry and expect to be let go. That doesn't even fly down here either. It's reasonable that the fine requires payment.

God is rich in mercy, and wishes NO ONE to perish. That is why the Son assumed human form, lived the perfect life that none of us have, and willingly took on the punishment of death for those who will simply trust in him. Jesus Chrust paid the fine, and his perfection is given to us.

There are no rules to follow. The whole point is that we couldn't if we wanted to. Jesus did it all. So-called Christians who claim you gotta do this and that have missed the point.

Note, this is not "picking and choosing" as I'm sure I'll be blamed for. Jesus fulfilled the law so I don't have to.

So this is why Christians who assume their own self-righteousness are deluded. They forget or didn't even know all of this. Westboro Baptists are not Christians. The so-called church across the river in Kentucky that disavowed interracial marriage are not Christians. The faith healers that bilk money from hurting folks and fly around in jets are not Christians. Joel Osteen and his promises of having a better life if you just pray more is not Christian.

Now, I have beliefs, but I don't hate anyone. I believe homosexuality is a sin, because the Bible says so. But I am NOT an iota better. I'll never think less of y'all because you curse more than I do, because without Christ I am far worse. Such was I before The Lord saved me, so I'll never have any superiority.

Serious question here: Do you believe there have been other people in history who have 'fulfilled the law,' so-to-speak? For instance, Krishna? Or Buddha? Or Muhammad? Or even indigenous sacred persons such as White Buffalo Calf Woman? All who's teachings are very similar to Jesus.

Basically, do you think God has had other Sons/Daughters? Or is Jesus the only one?
Report Spam   Logged
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 17   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
Free SMF Hosting - Create your own Forum

Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy