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Author Topic: Religion  (Read 1900 times)
anarchy
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« Reply #210 on: July 23, 2014, 02:12:54 pm »

Why petty and small? Why is there being a creator more likely than there not being one?

I tried to keep it neutral. My point was that I'm not sure if there is a creator or not and that it might be just as likely there is none. I don't know.

I do think the universe is full of wonderous and marvelous things, but I also think it's amazing how much of that we have discovered...how much of that we are slowing understanding. Take the big bang and the expansion of the universe, we have come to that conclusion by using evidence from pretty primitive devices. A couple of chaps get obsessive about bird poo in a radio telescope, and it eventually leads to a new understanding of our universe.
Agreed. It's amazing how far our understanding of the universe has come in a relatively short amount of time. Humans are cool. Scientists that work for the betterment of mankind are cool. Priests that work for the betterment of their flock are cool, too.

You say we cannot possibly comprehend some things, but why not? Maybe not now but who knows how much we will discover?

We have a long way to go to understand everything that there is in this universe and our attempts to find answers often just find more questions. And that's a good thing. I certainly do not know how much we will discover as a race before our time is done, but I can guarantee it won't be everything. And a thousand years or more from now, we'll probably still be arguing on whatever passes for the internet.

I'm kind of with the anthropic principle on this one. Yes it's unlikely that everything went right, but for us to be alive in universe to observe it, that universe has to be the one that supports us. Maybe there were countless other universes that didn't get it quite right. It's pretty unlikely that any of us should be alive, but we are...I'm here to have that thought because all those unlikely events happened to result in my birth and survival.
I'd like to think that there were an infinite number of possibilities before the Big Bang and there will be an infinite number of possibilities after the heat death of the universe and whatever comes next.

Unlikeliness never seemed like great evidence of a creator, unlikely things are pretty commonplace when you start looking.  Grin

So very true!

Graham's number seems to me to be proof of the ingenuity of humans. Maths is a human construct we use to model the world, and Graham's number is a very interesting result of that model. I'm not sure it means anything else to me.

It is proof of human ingenuity. Evolution and social developments and human ingenuity have brought us to point where we can create those models. To me, no amount of science or philosophy can disprove the existence one way or the other of a creator. I don't think science and religion are mutually exclusive.
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« Reply #211 on: July 23, 2014, 02:16:37 pm »



I'd be interested in how other religions deal with the issue. Salvation seems such a fundamental draw for religion. Perhaps I'd find more honesty in a religion that didn't espouse that.

A lot of pagan religions don't bother. There is likely an afterlife, but little to make your lot better.
Shintoism shares this. Evidence shows this was how Judaism originally viewed the afterlife as well;
dunno if any sects hold that view today.

Confusionism, which may not qualify as a religion at all, doesn't believe in an afterlife. The rewards of
living well are just inherent in living well.
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« Reply #212 on: July 23, 2014, 02:18:02 pm »

Why petty and small? Why is there being a creator more likely than there not being one?

I tried to keep it neutral. My point was that I'm not sure if there is a creator or not and that it might be just as likely there is none. I don't know.


Hell, why ONLY ONE? MOAR is better!
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« Reply #213 on: July 25, 2014, 01:08:52 pm »

Reposting my question after the ****storm:

I'm all for having a serious discussion, but it's tough to respond to the flurry.

I've been a Christian since August 2010. I was not a good person. I'm a liar. I'm a thief. I disrespected my parents. I was an adulterer and a fornicator. I never kept God in importance. As a matter of fact, I lived my whole previous 38 years constructing one idol after another. I worshipped myself. I worshipped money. I worshipped comfort. I worshipped the admiration of other people. I continually blasphemed the name of God who was kind enough to provide air to breathe. Anyone who claims to be free of these is just adding one more lie.

I realized that my life could be snuffed out in a heartbeat, just like it did for many friends of mine, and family I loved. If I faced God with all those things on my account, I'd be in trouble, and certainly hell bound.

Just like ourselves, God doesn't dig people breaking his laws. And just as we have a strong sense of justice, so does God. Those iniquities are worthy of punishment. You can't just say sorry and expect to be let go. That doesn't even fly down here either. It's reasonable that the fine requires payment.

God is rich in mercy, and wishes NO ONE to perish. That is why the Son assumed human form, lived the perfect life that none of us have, and willingly took on the punishment of death for those who will simply trust in him. Jesus Chrust paid the fine, and his perfection is given to us.

There are no rules to follow. The whole point is that we couldn't if we wanted to. Jesus did it all. So-called Christians who claim you gotta do this and that have missed the point.

Note, this is not "picking and choosing" as I'm sure I'll be blamed for. Jesus fulfilled the law so I don't have to.

So this is why Christians who assume their own self-righteousness are deluded. They forget or didn't even know all of this. Westboro Baptists are not Christians. The so-called church across the river in Kentucky that disavowed interracial marriage are not Christians. The faith healers that bilk money from hurting folks and fly around in jets are not Christians. Joel Osteen and his promises of having a better life if you just pray more is not Christian.

Now, I have beliefs, but I don't hate anyone. I believe homosexuality is a sin, because the Bible says so. But I am NOT an iota better. I'll never think less of y'all because you curse more than I do, because without Christ I am far worse. Such was I before The Lord saved me, so I'll never have any superiority.

Serious question here: Do you believe there have been other people in history who have 'fulfilled the law,' so-to-speak? For instance, Krishna? Or Buddha? Or Muhammad? Or even indigenous sacred persons such as White Buffalo Calf Woman? All who's teachings are very similar to Jesus.

Basically, do you think God has had other Sons/Daughters? Or is Jesus the only one?


Yo stemcider, glad to see ya shoot this to the top!

No one is good. Those may be great people, but they were sinners in need of salvation too. At the least, we're all wicked as children. If you're a parent, you know what I'm talking about.  Grin

On teachings similar to Jesus... remember, my position is that Jesus was the Son of God, in the flesh, living a perfect life as a propitiation for those who believe in him. Yes, the teachings were valuable, but his purpose was not to teach or give advice. If anything, he made life even harder for those attempting to do good on their own. He took the law and magnified it to make sure everyone knew they were no good. His words:

   “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire." (Matthew 5:21-22 ESV)

   “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-28 ESV)

I also do not agree that other teachings by the great people you listed were similar to those of Jesus. The essential of all of them is that you must do better, try harder, and you can be a better person. Jesus taught the exact opposite. You can't fix yourself because you're too broken. He was better, and he loved his people enough to have his goodness credited to them.
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« Reply #214 on: July 26, 2014, 08:39:12 am »

Do you guys have any idea how moronic you're sounding?

They do seem to agree that repeating the same thought makes your argument stronger.
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« Reply #215 on: July 26, 2014, 12:03:09 pm »



Dude. All I gotta do is follow the big cheese on Twitter.


Sweet deal.


Oooh...that's almost as valuable as GG.


I'm wondering if I make an automated script to generate fb accounts and follow the pope,
if I can get enough indulgences to become beatified - or something.
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« Reply #216 on: July 26, 2014, 12:07:00 pm »



Dude. All I gotta do is follow the big cheese on Twitter.


Sweet deal.


Oooh...that's almost as valuable as GG.


I'm wondering if I make an automated script to generate fb accounts and follow the pope,
if I can get enough indulgences to become beatified - or something.


Larry Wall always did say that laziness was a virtue.   Wink
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« Reply #217 on: July 26, 2014, 12:08:06 pm »

The lazy thing to do is figure that God will just credit me for the thought.
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« Reply #218 on: July 26, 2014, 12:22:55 pm »

Lots of skip over in this thread.

One of the things I see a lot is people viewing specific religions based on the actions of a few people who say they are part of that religion or getting their view of particular religions from media sources which have biased agendas because they are being edited and presented via likewise generated points of view.

More likely than not, the people are the problem and not the religion. 

People like to impose their views on others.  Just look at those home associations.  Same sorta stuff.

In many cases the religion is not the problem, but people acting badly towards others and using religion as some sort of reason to do it, which in the end isn't even what their religion teaches, is the problem.
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« Reply #219 on: July 26, 2014, 12:42:08 pm »

Yeah. I wanted to focus more on the beliefs than the name-calling.

For example, the philosophical underpinning to indulgences is very sensible.
The end results caused some serious problems through history though.
BUT, some of the philosophical stances taken to avoid such (good works
not being considered of value) are also very disturbing.
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« Reply #220 on: July 26, 2014, 02:17:21 pm »

Yeah. I wanted to focus more on the beliefs than the name-calling.

For example, the philosophical underpinning to indulgences is very sensible.
The end results caused some serious problems through history though.
BUT, some of the philosophical stances taken to avoid such (good works
not being considered of value) are also very disturbing.

See, you wanted to talk theology and you started a religion thread Smiley

I went through and cleaned up my mess. As I have said wrong person wrong day. Push my buttons on a really bad day and it can go nuclear really fast.

I referred back to my original post and will stand by it. Any organization that is not elected by the people but has the power to control my life or aspects of my life I am against 100%.
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« Reply #221 on: July 26, 2014, 04:13:43 pm »

Yeah. I wanted to focus more on the beliefs than the name-calling.

For example, the philosophical underpinning to indulgences is very sensible.
The end results caused some serious problems through history though.
BUT, some of the philosophical stances taken to avoid such (good works
not being considered of value) are also very disturbing.

See, you wanted to talk theology and you started a religion thread Smiley

I went through and cleaned up my mess. As I have said wrong person wrong day. Push my buttons on a really bad day and it can go nuclear really fast.

I referred back to my original post and will stand by it. Any organization that is not elected by the people but has the power to control my life or aspects of my life I am against 100%.

But an organization elected by the people that has the power to control your life is okay? Huh
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« Reply #222 on: July 26, 2014, 04:16:46 pm »


But an organization elected by the people that has the power to control your life is okay? Huh

There is often no tyranny so odious as that brought to bear by the majority will.
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« Reply #223 on: July 26, 2014, 04:22:01 pm »

If we were on that other site, the GG would be raining down. Grin
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« Reply #224 on: July 26, 2014, 04:26:27 pm »

Popular will is a mindless beast which rages one way or another.
The ability to control it - or pander to it - doesn't seem a measure
of what is required to make good or wise decisions.


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