The Game Box
March 19, 2024, 12:02:47 am
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The new site is Running.
This one is closed.


sign up here: http://thegamebox.gamesontables.com/
 
  Home Help Search Gallery Links Staff List Login Register  

Does ASL naturally attract pussies?

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Does ASL naturally attract pussies?  (Read 1077 times)
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
Search 500 Posts Karma Bad
« on: July 08, 2014, 10:51:56 pm »

Most of the guys I really knew who played ASL weren't the least exclusive about it.

I've met guys IRL who played pretty heavily, and though I don't share their gaming tastes,
they seemed like decent enough folk.
Report Spam   Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

sparty
I can't wait to play that ... someday...
Forum Curious
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 90



View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Karma Bad Level 4 50 Posts
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2014, 06:28:14 am »

I like ASL quite a bit.  To me though it's less about the wargaming of it and more about the ease of access to opponents and interesting scenarios.  I'd say that over the past year or so my appreciation for the "realism" of ASL has gone away.  Mark Herman's point that tactical games end up feeling like god-simulators where the dice introduce random chrome rules for players to deal with was a spot on analysis.

I just built a copy of Up Front for myself because I lost my $125 on the KS...stupid me...I also really enjoy Fields of Fire and believe it has the best sense of Command and Control I've ever seen at the tactical level.

The ASL'ers I've played against locally and met through my writing about it on the Internet are generally pretty great people.  There's a fringy element though that's VERY loud and can't handle critique of the system. 

Do you think that's because they've invested so much time/money/sweat equity in learning and playing that there's a perception in which critique diminishes the value of the effort/money expended?
Report Spam   Logged
kira1y
Guest

Badges: (View All)
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2014, 07:45:24 am »

I used to play ASL almost exclusively back in the late 90s early 00s. Hit the big midwest ASL conventions just about every year there for a while. I can't think of a single person that I've played that I wouldn't play again. I sold my entire collection in 2003 (or there about) after just getting burned out on the thing, but picked up the rulebook and a few modules a couple of years ago as a local guy was interested in playing.

I think I'm pretty much done with it now though as there are too many other systems that I'd rather spend my time with.
Report Spam   Logged
wilhammer
n00b

Offline Offline

Posts: 4


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Karma Good Level 2 Combination
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2014, 09:03:40 am »

I like ASL quite a bit.  To me though it's less about the wargaming of it and more about the ease of access to opponents and interesting scenarios.  I'd say that over the past year or so my appreciation for the "realism" of ASL has gone away.  Mark Herman's point that tactical games end up feeling like god-simulators where the dice introduce random chrome rules for players to deal with was a spot on analysis.

I just built a copy of Up Front for myself because I lost my $125 on the KS...stupid me...I also really enjoy Fields of Fire and believe it has the best sense of Command and Control I've ever seen at the tactical level.

The ASL'ers I've played against locally and met through my writing about it on the Internet are generally pretty great people.  There's a fringy element though that's VERY loud and can't handle critique of the system. 

Do you think that's because they've invested so much time/money/sweat equity in learning and playing that there's a perception in which critique diminishes the value of the effort/money expended?


ASL is a war movie/ comic book simulator.
If you combine Sergeant Rock with Kelly's Heroes you get ASL.

and yes, gotta agree, those that are thoroughly and personally invested in ANYTHING will fight how wonderful and great it is and how dangerous other views are because of their need to keep the faith alive, no matter how ridiculous the premise.


------------

Now, my assessment might be TOO harsh. On the other side really of the argument.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 09:41:08 am by wilhammer » Report Spam   Logged
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
Search 500 Posts Karma Bad
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2014, 09:10:04 am »

I like ASL quite a bit.  To me though it's less about the wargaming of it and more about the ease of access to opponents and interesting scenarios.  I'd say that over the past year or so my appreciation for the "realism" of ASL has gone away.  Mark Herman's point that tactical games end up feeling like god-simulators where the dice introduce random chrome rules for players to deal with was a spot on analysis.


I don't know that's a terrible thing though. I mean, I favor games which give me choices that I feel a commander could
make, but there are always trade offs. I'd prefer something like M&P, but the state changes in small units would be
a great deal more complex (I think) than what is provided for in close formation eras.

Quote
I just built a copy of Up Front for myself because I lost my $125 on the KS...stupid me...I also really enjoy Fields of Fire and believe it has the best sense of Command and Control I've ever seen at the tactical level.

These card games just don't give me the same visualization that a board does. That's a big detraction.

Quote
The ASL'ers I've played against locally and met through my writing about it on the Internet are generally pretty great people.  There's a fringy element though that's VERY loud and can't handle critique of the system. 

Do you think that's because they've invested so much time/money/sweat equity in learning and playing that there's a perception in which critique diminishes the value of the effort/money expended?


Add to that that there's a critical mass - so the echo chamber intensifies things.
Report Spam   Logged
wilhammer
n00b

Offline Offline

Posts: 4


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Karma Good Level 2 Combination
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2014, 09:50:22 am »

Here is a thread I have had on my mind - "The 800 lb Gorillas that might harm the Wargame Economy"

1. ASL - slick packaging, fun mechanics, and nothing like it before when Squad Leader came out - Avalon Hill hit a homerun.

Thing is, many other titles came out covering similar scope that had better even more 'realistic' mechanics, and they got squashed - CityFight, Gameform's Combat, SPI Raid!, Partol/Sniper, Yaquinto's Close Assault.

Should ASL have died with AH - was saving it a good thing?

2. Richard Berg - he floods the market with games. I personally think that ACW tactical Combat games were innovation deprived for along time because of GBACW.

Truth is that such a post may no longer be relevant - never has it been so rich a selection of options and games to choose from.
Report Spam   Logged
Calandale
Mockingbird
Wyrd
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 983


I mock you


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
Search 500 Posts Karma Bad
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 11:05:20 am »

Here is a thread I have had on my mind - "The 800 lb Gorillas that might harm the Wargame Economy"

1. ASL - slick packaging, fun mechanics, and nothing like it before when Squad Leader came out - Avalon Hill hit a homerun.

Thing is, many other titles came out covering similar scope that had better even more 'realistic' mechanics, and they got squashed - CityFight, Gameform's Combat, SPI Raid!, Partol/Sniper, Yaquinto's Close Assault.

Should ASL have died with AH - was saving it a good thing?

Most of those systems lost out to squad leader too. Tongue

The desire is not for realism (I think) but more for other factors - hence the popularity of Combat Commander.

Quote
2. Richard Berg - he floods the market with games. I personally think that ACW tactical Combat games were innovation deprived for along time because of GBACW.


Were they? When something else decent came along (CWB) it made it. I think the hobby is very short on innovators.
For good or ill, Berg comes up with a lot of such innovations. Some are pretty lousy (The Conquerors is a good example),
many aren't polished enough, but I don't think the hobby would be more innovative without him. Even the damned
ACW stuff he's massively rearranged the system.

Report Spam   Logged
W.E.Bear
n00b

Offline Offline

Posts: 3



View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Avatar Level 2 Karma
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2014, 11:27:18 am »

Turn-based doesn't seem to fit the scale of squad-level tactical. Impulses just make more sense to me at that scale. About the only thing I really appreciated about ASL was the residual fire, which does a lot to mitigate the very gamey exhaust-and-rush tactic that's a staple of a system like Lock 'n Load.

Having played all of one ASL Starter Kit scenario, my opinion is obviously unimpeachable.
Report Spam   Logged
sparty
I can't wait to play that ... someday...
Forum Curious
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 90



View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Karma Bad Level 4 50 Posts
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2014, 03:46:42 pm »

I like ASL quite a bit.  To me though it's less about the wargaming of it and more about the ease of access to opponents and interesting scenarios.  I'd say that over the past year or so my appreciation for the "realism" of ASL has gone away.  Mark Herman's point that tactical games end up feeling like god-simulators where the dice introduce random chrome rules for players to deal with was a spot on analysis.


I don't know that's a terrible thing though. I mean, I favor games which give me choices that I feel a commander could
make, but there are always trade offs. I'd prefer something like M&P, but the state changes in small units would be
a great deal more complex (I think) than what is provided for in close formation eras.


It might be interesting to see what a pre-plotted WW2 squad based game could be like.

Your units would have explicit leaders who are generic because they just represent leadership being present.  Units must meet communication guidelines to receive orders based on distance, field phone integrity, suppression status.  If a unit's in command, the leaders actually issue orders.

You'd still have the god-like version of control across the board, but you'd also gain something by not allowing a company to spread out across a half mile area and still know exactly where and when they're each going to reach a destination while retaining their full combat effectiveness.

Fields of Fire does 2 things REALLY well...
1 - Command and Control
2 - Volume of Fire

Based on my uninformed and groping attempts at reading field manuals, these seem like concepts the military tries to beat into the brains of every captain and sergeant.  It's surprising that so few tactical systems that it into account.

The broader issue, and one I'm also struggling with is ... if I win this scenario ... so what?  Campaign Games go a long way toward helping that, but that's still a limited scope and often feel like a game is being shoehorned to fit this arbitrarily larger scale...particularly with ASL.  So, I end up asking myself ... why would I play Kampfgruppe Peiper I & II when I could just pull out Ardennes '44 and enjoy myself?
Report Spam   Logged
Trynant
n00b

Offline Offline

Posts: 6


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Level 2 Karma Good Karma
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 06:26:22 pm »

Most of the guys I really knew who played ASL weren't the least exclusive about it.

I've met guys IRL who played pretty heavily, and though I don't share their gaming tastes,
they seemed like decent enough folk.

I've only gotten into wargaming recently, but what attracted me was the sheer detail so many designs in war games were willing to put on the table (literally). I did end up picking up a lot of ASL stuff because I was attracted to essentially the wall of chrome the system has, and perhaps that appeal extends to a broader level.

Perhaps people attracted to ASL are those who want to see a "real heavyweight" of wargaming. Perhaps there's some pride tied to learning and playing a game with so many pages of rules? Maybe after getting through all that material a person just finds it easier to get interesting play with less effort by playing ASL rather than learning more rulesets.

Personally I just see ASL as a detailed game system with tons of material. I like tactical games; I like detailed games: ASL is kind of up my alley. I'm going to make an effort to learn it, but there's a snowball's chance in hell I'll forfeit the rest of tabletop for this one system.
Report Spam   Logged
anarchy
Passive Aggressive Gamer
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 138



View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
Level 5 100 Posts Signature
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2014, 06:56:31 pm »

These card games just don't give me the same visualization that a board does. That's a big detraction.
I actually like Up Front because of that reason. I think it handles fog of war better than concealment counters.

Attack Sub, too. Hex and counter sub games don't grab me, but Attack Sub gives me a good sense of the ASW game between hunter and hunted.

RE: ASL
My experience with ASL is pretty limited. I spent a year trying to learn, joined the SoCal ASL club. They were good people and very helpful (most were, at least). We didn't do any gaming outside of ASL or club events, but they seemed like pretty righteous guys (except for the one guy that worked in the **** industry and had to let everyone know about it -- multiple times, in detail).
Report Spam   Logged

Meh.
stemcider
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 105


dafuq


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Level 5 100 Posts Poll Voter
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2014, 08:18:12 pm »

Nope. I've only ever played ASL with men.
Report Spam   Logged
rodvik
Forum Curious
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24



View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Windows User Level 3 10 Posts
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2014, 02:04:00 am »

I love ASL scenarios. I played a fair amount of it but I get to play a bunch more with Retro and home-brew rules.

I think the game plays far better if you roll your own rules for it or make them up whenever you hit a question (common for many games in my experience). 

In particular the ASL vehicle rules as printed are a mess and IMHO always have been ever since the original Squad Leader.

However HASL campaigns are not to be missed by any wargamer with even a passing interest in WW2 imho.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:13:05 am by rodvik » Report Spam   Logged
manhattandoctor
n00b

Offline Offline

Posts: 4


View Profile
Badges: (View All)
Topic Starter Level 2 Poll Starter
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2014, 08:23:43 am »

I'll tell you what attracted me to ASL. I wanted to play a WWII tactical game where the pieces had personality. I love that ASL squads can cower, go berserk, produce heroes, etc. I love that ASL has leader counters that are very vital to your chances of winning. I like that a tank counter represents one tank and that some tanks can have armor leaders inside. An ASL game creates a story about individual soldiers better than any game I've played.

GBOH gives you some of that too. Fields of Fire and Up Front also. Any others?

Obviously, I play other wargames too. (Else I wouldn't be here.) But I discovered after playing several other WWII tactical games, that if you want to play WWII at that level, it's best to just give in to ASL.
Report Spam   Logged
Sluggonics
Fancy Lad
Forum Malcontent
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 107


Tell you what, Smithers- have him beaten to a pulp


View Profile WWW
Badges: (View All)
100 Posts Search Level 5
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2014, 08:48:40 am »

One thing I've noticed is that none of the ASL guys I know are solo gamers.  They only ever play face-to-face.  Winning and losing is a big deal to them, and they seem to be more of the mindset that solo gaming is pointless because there's no competition to be won or lost.

I only know about 6 or 7 serious ASL players - though all of them play other games as well - but they are all competitive gamers.  ASL is better as a face-to-face game than solo, so that may be part of it, but these guys don't solo any other games. 
Report Spam   Logged

Look out honey, 'cause I'm using technology!
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by EzPortal
Bookmark this site! | Upgrade This Forum
Free SMF Hosting - Create your own Forum

Powered by SMF | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy